The concept of a “theme” is something that comes up in writing when we’re talking about character motivations or plot in a longform narrative comic, and it’s basically a word or concept that’s at the core of what you’re trying to say in your story. So we’re going to talk about what themes are, how they come about, and how you can use them!

In This Episode:

• What kinds of themes have you consciously (or subconsciously!) put in your comics?
• How do you figure out your theme(s), and what kinds of things can you do with a theme once you’ve identified what it is?
• What is your advice to someone who’s stuck on figuring out what the theme of their story is?

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Episode Release Date: May 7, 2025

Episode Credits:

Kristen Lee (Krispy) - she/they, https://ghostjunksickness.com https://www.lunarblight.com

Christina Major (Delphina) - she/her, https://sombulus.com

Phineas Klier - they/them, https://heirsoftheveil.fervorcraft.de

Miranda Schwemmer - she/her, https://mirandacakes.art https://intotheswellcomic.com 


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The Intro "DO IT (feat. Shia LaBeouf)", and the Outro "It's Good To See You Again!!", both by Adrianwave, have been used and modified in good faith under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Licensed. Edits include: Fade IN/OUT, and a repeat added to the beginning of "It's Good To See You Again!!". For more information on this creative commons use, please reference https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3

Transcription

This transcript is auto generated by our recording software.

00:00.74

Miranda

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about the theme of your story. I'm Miranda, I use she/her pronouns, and I make the webcomic Into The Swell.

00:14.84

Delphina

And I'm Delphina, I use she/her pronouns and I make the webcomic Sombulus.

00:20.81

Phin

I'm Phin, I use they/them pronouns, and I do the webcomic Heirs of the Veil.

00:26.39

Krispy

And I'm Krispy, I use she/they pronouns, and I make the webcomics Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight.

00:33.66

Miranda

The concept of a theme is something that comes up in writing when we're talking about character motivations or plot in a long-form narrative comic. And it's basically a word or a concept that's at the core of what you're trying to say in your story and with your story. So we're going to talk about what themes are, how they come about, and how you can use them in your comic. So let's start off with: what kind of themes have you consciously or even subconsciously put in the comics that you've made?

01:03.56

Miranda

And we'll start with Delphie.

01:06.07

Delphina

Oh boy. Okay. This is a good one because I definitely went in with some conscious themes and then people have come back to me with other things that I had no idea I was putting in there. So one of the things you're going to see in Sombulus is fixing things. Broken versus fixing is a big theme for Sombulus. There's a lot of plot elements that have to do with things that go wrong,

01:34.84

Delphina

things that are broken that need to be fixed. And that's a lot of the adventure plot arcs of the story in general. But then you also get into characters who are coming from crappy backgrounds, who feel a little broken, and what they reached for or what they find to fix that aspect of themselves. So that's very intentional for me, as well as like, “What if they don't fix it? What if they just ignore their problems? What happens then?” Things get worse. So just trying to show that when we rely on other people, when we reach out to other people and talk about our experiences and how they're similar,

02:22.78

Delphina

that can lead to solutions that you can't come up with on your own when you're trying to fix your own problems. So that's one thing for me. False dualities is another really big thing. Just visually you can see I have people with angel wings and people with demon wings.

02:40.88

Delphina

So I'm playing on some genre expectations of that, obviously, and they are kind of at opposed sides in the narrative of Sombulus. But then when you get into the story, you'll find out, okay, well, there's actually also a duality between people who have wings and people who don't have wings, and how the people who don't have wings are being treated in society and what that means. But then I also echo it with coffee brands, right? I have a coffee brand of Wing Bucks coffee. And the angel peoples have one and the demon peoples have one and they're exactly the same coffee chain, but they have different logos. So like, I'm poking, you know, I'm trying to—

03:30.89

Delphina

Yeah the coffee stuff isn't necessarily part of the larger plot of Sombulus, but it is echoing the theme of like, what is even the difference between us? What is even the difference here? It's just the same thing with a different look, and again you're going back to reaching out to other things like we have more

03:51.77

Delphina

similar things than we have differences. And when we can actually acknowledge that it's a false duality, then we can fix some problems. So I would say those are two really big ones that happened for me in Sombulus. And then other things that people have reached out to me with is,

04:15.12

Delphina

Is total freedom desirable or disastrous? Some characters really want a freer code of freedom and don't want any kind of responsibilities. Some characters want a lot of responsibility and feel safer in that. And what's the difference there? And also, is fighting fire with fire the only way to end conflicts? Are there other ways of solving things other than violence? Those are things I'm not really thinking about putting in there, but the beautiful thing about themes is that they're very subjective to the person experiencing the work.

04:59.58

Delphina

And I think, for me, it's much easier to see and appreciate in music, because music—it was kind of made for thematic interpretation. When you think of a couple and they have their song, obviously, those two people don't know the musician, but they interpreted the song in a way that ties in thematically to their relationship. So if their relationship was about supporting each other in painful times, or an opposites attract thing where they kind of didn't get along and now they do, or “I was in a really bad place and you changed so many things about what I value in myself,” that will be thematic to the song that they pick.

05:41.39

Delphina

So that's another way to kind of conceptualize the subjective part of this, because even if you think you're working towards a theme, someone will come up with a completely different interpretation based on where they are in life.

05:56.58

Delphina

And it's beautiful. That's one of the most beautiful things of putting stuff out there. This is a feature not a bug, cuz I feel like sometimes people are like, “No you didn't get my theme you didn't understand what I was going for,” and there's a frustration in that, but there's also a beauty in when people find value for themselves.

06:16.50

Miranda

Yeah, so well said. And exactly what I was thinking of how the subconscious themes kind of are what everyone is getting out of it on their own because everyone interprets things, reads things differently. And one great thing about any type of media or story that's out in the world.

06:37.42

Miranda

And I love that you point out that fixing things is your like conscious theme. And it just had me thinking that Rana is the—she's literally fixing things. And so you have that very clear person that's fixing the actual items. And then from there, like you have everyone else who's fixing themselves or fixing each other and things like that, and I just thought that was neat.

07:08.97

Delphina

Thank you.

07:10.21

Miranda

So well done with that. What about you, Phin? What themes have you subconsciously or consciously put in your comic?

07:20.85

Phin

Yeah, I think that the main focus in Heirs of the Veil is kind of the topic of responsibilities, because when I started to examine the story a little bit, I’ve noticed that all the characters are kind of connected through responsibilities that are forced upon them in some way. And then the story kind of happens around this theme through, “How do they work with these sort of responsibilities?” Do they defy them?

08:00.37

Phin

Do they try to work with it? Do they try to live up to these expectations and responsibilities? And I think this is like the core theme that kind of creates some, I would say, sub-themes.

08:17.31

Phin

Because something else that then comes into play are themes of identity. Because the way or what people expect of you as a person is kind of connected also to who you are. When it comes to, for example, gender identity, that's something that's really important for Victoria, who is literally the heir to her house and to her witch's coven, because she's a woman and then there come certain expectations, certain responsibilities that she is supposed to fulfill. And then this creates this constant struggle of:

09:08.47

Phin

Is she actually trying to live up to these expectations? Is she going to solve these responsibilities or is she more fighting against it and trying to uproot it? And through all this, there's then also themes of old or ancient systems that are bogging people down. And then you have an idea of heritage, what is your heritage, what comes with the idea of you coming from a certain background, etc. So this is basically something that

09:51.43

Phin

is a theme that I worked out pretty early in the story and that is mostly the one I'm concentrating on. So any other theme is basically kind of just playing into the big theme, and it's interwoven.

10:08.88

Miranda

Mm hmm. Yeah, I can definitely see all of those themes come through in Heirs of the Veil. Especially the identity one. That one stood out to me when I was reading it. And so you definitely conveyed that. And then, yeah, I love what you said about everything just kind of, that you have the big one and then everything else kind of just goes into that big one and wraps it all up and just kind of expands on it. So

10:41.05

Miranda

very well said. What about you, Krispy? What themes, conscious or subconscious, have you put in your comics?

10:50.93

Krispy

So many, so many themes.

10:53.33

Miranda

You can only have one.

10:56.00

Krispy

So themes are interesting because I find, especially with the fact that Space and I have many works kind of in behind-the-scenes, kind of in pre-production, or actually being made.

10:56.11

Miranda

yeah

11:09.38

Krispy

So we have two comics, Ghost Junk Sickness being finished, and we're currently working on Lunar Blight. And in the pre-production, you find something out interesting. And this is what I want for a lot of people, realizing that themes are like a pattern in your work as individual creators. You're going to find that you are attracted to certain things that do pop up in your work a lot. Subconsciously, that stuff keeps popping up.

11:37.62

Krispy

We found that out by writing our stories and going like, okay, what does XYZ character want, the desires, what are the motivations and where do they go from there? And then, kind of plotting out their journey and being like, oh man, you know,

11:53.09

Krispy

a lot of the work that we create has self-acceptance in it and wanting a place to belong. And as far as Ghost Junk Sickness, that is one of the biggest themes, is that it is about finding that place of belonging. And it reflects on all three of the main characters and then also spreads to the other characters too, right down to the actual villains/antagonists to the story who just want that place of belonging.

12:23.00

Krispy

Vahn, who is one of the main characters, doesn't know kind of where they fit in. And the journey of Ghost Junk Sickness has them kind of trying to find that place. And it's the same with Trigger, who is also another main character, who tries to run away, but realizes that his place is kind of where he was chickening out from.

12:49.65

Krispy

Another theme that pops up is confronting the past. We have all three of the main characters going through things like that. And it also, again, cascades to other characters in the story, with constantly running into the past, confronting it being sideswiped from it, and growing from there or realizing something

13:13.39

Krispy

from there. And then the third theme that we always place into, or we found that popped up a lot in Ghost Junk, is finding that self-worth. And again, all three characters go through a nice arc to find that place, and then also the self-worth that they wanted from that too. And again, it's really cool because we were realizing as we were writing it, it just kept cascading to other characters, but not in a way where it's just like, “And they all felt like they belong.” It was like, these things mean different things to

13:46.77

Krispy

different characters and different situations and stuff like that. And it's just that core, that core that just kept coming back up, being like, “Oh, it all comes back to that.” And, starting our next story which we're working on now with Lunar Blight, we kept finding patterns that would come back, but just in different ways. So the themes for Lunar Blight were finding the truth, embracing darkness within, and then the extent you'll go for obsession. So they're different from Ghost Junk, but they still have like a lot of like similarities of like

14:21.92

Krispy

you know a character finding that certain place, whether it be darkness or something good within that they want to bring out. But yeah, we're finding a lot of interesting patterns that we go for it. And we've started because we've been doing more works now that we've finished Ghost Junk. It's interesting that we're starting with themes more so. I found when we were writing Ghost Junk Sickness,

14:49.86

Krispy

it came along being like, “Oh, okay, I'm realizing this is what we're writing and this is kind of cool,” and then we leaned into it. And I think that it made like a satisfactory, “oh okay,” this feels very satisfying to have a character arc have a theme, and it made sense for their actions as the story went along. And then now it's informing how we're writing Lunar Blight, being like—and it's not gonna be like calculated either.

15:19.29

Krispy

It doesn't have to be robotic, but it really helps with deciding where a character is gonna go narratively and making sense with that.

15:25.31

Miranda

Mm hmm.

15:27.20

Krispy

Because I feel like a theme is gonna tie in a lot of that, you know, “does this make sense” kind of thing, like “where are we going from here?” And it's just a nice little ribbon to kind of wrap up that story.

15:39.50

Krispy

And yeah, that's just, that's what we've been kind of focusing on with those two stories.

15:46.63

Miranda

I feel like with the definitions you gave of the themes, Ghost Junk versus Lunar Blight, I feel like Lunar Blight is like the dark side of all of the Ghost Junk themes.

15:54.57

Krispy

Yeah, it is.

15:56.70

Miranda

Like, what happens when you approach this but from a dark angle? And I love that. And that also fits with the genre and just like feel of the stories too.

16:08.63

Miranda

So yeah, that's really fun to see. And then I think the—I love what you said about trends in your own work and I'm noticing that too coming from starting my second comic, is like, because you obviously don't have anything to compare when it's your first story but then you go to the second one and you're like wait, I do tend to like a lot of these concepts. And it's fun to have those pop up. And

16:40.48

Miranda

the same thing with starting with a theme, which I'm trying to do more, like I'm trying to put more effort into knowing my theme at the start and working it in and kind of keeping it in mind as I write this new story versus just writing and then

17:01.26

Miranda

finding the theme as you go and how the process is different.

17:05.24

Miranda

But I think that brings us really well to the next question of, how do you figure out your theme and what can you do with it once you've identified it, whether you have it at the beginning or you find it out as you go along.

17:18.75

Miranda

So let's go back up to Delphie, and how do you figure out your theme? And what are the many possibilities you can do with it?

17:30.36

Delphina

Yeah, so to Krispy's point, emergent things are going to happen the more you make stuff. You as an author are going to find out what you want to talk about, whether that's self-acceptance or responsibility, or anything like that, like, whatever is important to you in your soul is going to come out in your work somehow. So the first thing you have to do is make the work. In my experience,

17:54.99

Delphina

I can't just figure out a theme on paper and write to that theme right away. I have to kind of get something out of my head and look at it. And then I take out my magnifying glass and I play detective and I'm like, “How is this like this?” “How is that like that?” “What connections can I draw here?” Another thing you can do is you can show it around to other people and say, “What are you seeing here? When you look at this work, what is the message you're getting from it? Or what are the similarities between the character struggles? Or what's interesting to you about this?” And a lot of times your peers can kind of help you

18:38.78

Delphina

guide into a theme. I remember about eight years ago, one of my really good friends, Robin Childs, does so much cool writing and stuff. And they also do writing coaching. And I went ahead and I asked them to do a thematic analysis of Sombulus.

19:00.58

Delphina

They came back with this 13-page, wonderful document of all the things they were looking at. And it just really kickstarted a lot in my mind and got some juices flowing when I was at a point where I was feeling a little stuck thematically. So I think there's a real power in that if you have a developmental editor friend, or somebody that you want to reach out towards, like that's a thing that they can help you with as well.

19:28.97

Delphina

And just also, themes are a little different than tropes and genre. But there's thematic elements there too. Like, if you're telling a vampire story, there's a certain expectation that you're going to address certain themes. It's probably going to be a darker thing because that's what a lot of people do.

19:57.70

Delphina

You can look at what other people are doing with those tropes or with that genre and kind of see what attracted you to that in the first place, and that can kind of sometimes help you. Going back to vampires, you might have themes

20:14.26

Delphina

based on character compared to character. So if you've got two vampires, you might find yourself talking about the different ways they handle their bloodlust, like which way is healthier in the long run, who's got their act together, maybe neither of them do. But you might find themes when you compare two characters, you might find themes when you compare two cultures. So maybe you have a vampire and then you have a human

20:41.21

Delphina

and their friends. And you talk about what things they both value, why they were attracted to each other as friends, but what being raised in a vampire society versus a human society changes about what tools they reach to approach their goals or how they approach their relationships. That can be very interesting to me. And culture can include things like values, religion, life experience, tragic backstories, all that good stuff.

21:11.53

Delphina

And yeah, I also love thinking about video games with a quest mechanic because the types of things your characters will be asked to do by NPCs in a video game is usually influenced by the area you're in and the culture of the people living there.

21:34.03

Delphina

So i'm gonna pull out Legend of Zelda, if you go into a Gerudo area in any of the games, you're working with the desert and the extreme weather, so there's going to be plot directions that have you finding water or dealing with the heat and sandstorms because that's the reality of living in the desert. Then you've got this extreme female-run society, so there's going to be a lot of plot things related to the gender dynamics. You're going to have to go in disguise sometimes, or you're going to have to deal their man-hunting classes or whatever. There's so many things about the gender stuff that's super interesting in Gerudo society.

22:14.94

Delphina

But then you're tying back into the larger Zelda themes that kind of come up. There's a lot of big, big themes from learning about the past. If you don't understand the history or what happened in the past, you can't face that in the future. And Gerudo in particular, they have stuff buried in the sand. There's usually something that you have to dig out or a temple that rises up from the sand or a big monster or something.

22:41.44

Delphina

So it's kind of your duty to physically and spiritually uncover things again and again and again. And that echoes things when you go out to the larger map of other things that are happening in in Zelda. There's things you have to find over and over again, there's a forest and it's maze-like, and you have to find the sword again, and there's other—the Zora areas, but I could just talk about Zelda forever, so I'm not going to. But I think it does a beautiful job of having a theme, having larger themes and having micro themes.

23:21.18

Delphina

And I think that's an easy way for me to kind of think about macro versus micro, and how those two connect.

23:28.23

Miranda

Uh-huh. Yeah. And the point about the different areas and basing based on environment is kind of a good visual to keep in mind and help if you're stuck. And you can branch out from looking at your characters to, okay, what's in their environment that would affect what they're doing and how they're doing it and how they're tying into the theme that you want.

23:58.16

Miranda

So many good thoughts there. I do feel like I just got a free theme critique about my vampire story I'm working on. So thanks for that.

24:07.17

Delphina

Oh my gosh.

Miranda

I appreciate it.

24:12.87

Miranda

I'm not making notes for myself to use at a later date, not at all. Nope. And Phin, how do you figure out your theme and what do you do with it in your stories?

24:28.31

Phin

Yeah, oh boy, I think Delphie already said so many very important, good things.

24:34.94

Phin

Generally, I think I do what a lot of people do and stuff that you have already hinted at and work backwards from it. I try to figure out the plot. I look at the individual parts, and then I'm like, “Okay, what's the connective tissue? What's the thing at the heart of that story?” And if I can think about this for a little while, I'll probably have my theme. I think it's also fair to say I have a theme in mind. There's this really important thing that I want to talk about. For example, I want to talk about grief and what grief does to people. And I want to structure a story around that specific theme.

25:25.70

Phin

But I feel, especially in webcomic circles, most people will probably start with characters and a story in mind, and then slowly develop the themes with that.

25:42.43

Phin

And that's certainly also what I do.

25:45.55

Miranda

Yeah.

25:45.85

Phin

I sometimes think about it and I'm wondering if it's like a good—or an approach that

25:59.67

Phin

makes the strongest story, because once you have that theme, it's kind of like your plot line or the thread that you can use the through line to not go off the rails and stick to what you actually want to say with your story. So if you're kind of developing your themes as you go, you might probably run into the issue of—you kind of don't know what your themes are and you're kind of just playing along and you're not really thinking about it because there are just these characters and you want to tell the story so the themes might kind of be accidental, or worse, the themes

26:48.60

Phin

that you intend or that you think your story has might be themes that your readers are totally disagreeing with, and they see something completely different. So I think that, for developing your themes, you should try to figure that out in the earlier development stages and then work it into your story. So if you wait too long to actually think about, “what are my themes,” that can kind of bite you in the butt in the long run.

27:24.19

Miranda

Mm-hmm. Yeah, such a great point, of wanting to—the benefit and what you can do with knowing your theme ahead of time, and then the downside of waiting too long to figure it out.

27:41.39

Miranda

I definitely felt that in my first comic. I didn't really think about theme. And if I had from the beginning, I think everything would have tied together and kind of stayed on track a bit more.

27:53.76

Miranda

Yeah, just a great way to think about theme is that it's like the guiding principle of your story, and it can help you make sure that you're telling the story you want. So excellent thoughts, Phin. Krispy, how do you figure out themes, and what do you do with them?

28:14.21

Krispy

Okie dokie artichokie. So, kind of like what I've said in, or touched on a little bit in my first kind of answer, is that we try to keep themes in mind. Of course, they're gonna kind of come naturally with those patterns that I was talking about. But moving forward, it's kind of fun

28:34.74

Krispy

figuring out those patterns and then putting them in your work. So we usually start with a simple desire from the main characters and work on what it means as a whole narratively. Why do they want to do the thing, and what does it mean to them? And I think that's that meaning

28:53.13

Krispy

that starts to interwove itself into the entire plot, that you're like, “okay, okay, wait a second, this is a bigger kind of thing here. This is, oh my goodness, this this is a theme, like a capital-T-H theme.” I guess H is not capitalized. Anyway, it could be.

29:09.58

Miranda

Yeah, it could be. Maybe it's a... Yeah, it could be. You can capitalize that H if you want.

29:17.72

Krispy

And I think I will, because when it starts to become more apparent in your work you're just like, okay, as you're developing the characters it's weaving that pattern, and I'm finding that it's interesting to see it domino into other characters.

29:36.98

Krispy

And as the plot kind of progresses with that theme, because you want to uncover what these things start to mean to the characters, and then it's just reflecting on the plot as a whole. Because I'm like, you know, it's not going to move if the character is not going to move with the plot. Or at least it's not going to be interesting if the characters aren't moving.

29:58.38

Krispy

So, you know, as those things start to develop, you're going to find that pattern, and it's going to start kind of blossoming and turning into something that you can pick apart. So with Ghost Junk Sickness, we started with Vahn's need, like I was talking about before, who's a main character, to find a place of belonging and self-worth. And then we start to reflect like, okay, this is Vahn's kind of motive or their background kind of thing. And what does that mean for our other characters, like Trigger or Boggmouth and stuff like that. And, you know, we're finding that these characters kind of want the same thing, but they're going about it differently,

30:39.03

Krispy

and in ways that make sense to their character too. So, you know, we have these desires and we throw them on a corkboard and we start kind of putting them together and seeing how they connect. And I think that's one of the biggest things is to be like, okay, we're figuring out characters, but you want it to be cohesive, especially when you have a story that has a bigger cast, and you want to explore them as characters. I feel like the theme is just a nice way, again, just to kind of wrap that up in a neat bow and make it feel cohesive because there's a lot of times where I've read stuff that it's just like,

31:25.57

Krispy

It's a little chaotic. It's just like, I don't see a theme that's tying these things together. So the wants and the desires are just all over the place, but a theme can help that. It could really pull that together so that it's just like, “Oh, okay.” And it's not in a way where it's just like, “Oh, all three of these characters are doing the exact same thing and I can see where this goes.” It's not that, because they're all gonna be finding it in a different way.

31:53.32

Krispy

And it's underneath. it's just, it's not screaming you in the face that this is the theme, but it feels like it all fits together, and it feels like it fits the story that you're kind of going through. So yeah, we figure out in a little timeline, what are these characters' desires and what does it mean to them. And so as far as Vahn and Trigger were concerned when I was talking about them, you know, Vahn wants to see themself as worthy of love and Trigger does too, but again in his own way. And I like that it's so unique and personal, and it makes finding that theme and sticking to it helpful to figure out what we want to do and where we want to end up in the story and how that makes sense at the end of the story. Was that wrapped up?

32:41.08

Krispy

Do the readers—are they picking up what we're putting down? And I think that's where I'm really conscious of it. And I think because Ghost Junk was our first original big story that we've decided, Space and I, to do together—you know, you're not gonna figure this stuff out in the beginning sometimes, especially when it's your first work. That's a lot.

33:04.84

Krispy

And themes are pretty big. But we found it out in the middle of the story, because we were discovering our patterns. So, you know, by chapter, I don't know, 12, 13, 14, we're like, “Hmm, these keep coming back. These keep, you know, reappearing.” And when we found that out, we got this trajectory of like, okay, so, you know, we're gonna kind of focus on going in this direction for these character arcs.

33:31.81

Krispy

Because the plot can also start to feed into that, and it feels satisfying. I think that's like the biggest thing, is that, when you can see a theme is clearly given that care and making sense in both the characters and the plot,

33:45.58

Krispy

the whole thing feels satisfying to not only write, but to read. It feels like, okay, there was care put into this and we're not just sitting here and the writer is just throwing things and being like, “Now we're here.

33:57.23

Krispy

It doesn't really make sense, because I just wanted to go here in the plot, but we're here now.” And it, you know, the characters are disconnected from the plot, kind of thing.

34:05.08

Krispy

So again, themes really help with that.

34:05.33

Miranda

Yeah, agreed again, so many great thoughts. And the “why” is so important in helping figure out the theme and helping maintain the theme throughout and maintaining that cohesion.

34:21.69

Miranda

And I feel like every character can have, like—if your topic is love, for example, every character has an opinion on love, whether it's the forefront of their mind or it's a background, but even just having them not care about it is their opinion on it, and kind of

34:44.25

Miranda

focusing on how everyone feels about that topic or feels about love, justice, revenge, whatever, and why they want it, why they want to belong, just the “why” is so important and it can really help in figuring out your theme if you're stuck.

35:03.11

Krispy

Mm hmm.

35:03.35

Miranda

And on that note, we've thrown in a lot of good advice already, but let's dive into: what advice do you have for someone who's stuck on figuring out what the theme of their story is, whether they're just starting or they have 12 chapters of their comic already and they're trying to figure it out. Let's go back to Delphie. Give us your advice.

35:32.63

Delphina

Oh gosh, well, I feel like that was my exact experience, just being so many chapters into my comic, and I was doing the things I wanted to do. I was just having fun with my characters. I wasn't really thinking about what I was saying or whatever. I was just attracted to certain things, but that happened on a subconscious level for reasons. I like the things I like, and I was attracted to the story I wanted to tell for reasons. And there can only be good things for learning what those reasons are, I think. So I encourage you to just try to dig into that and explore that. And I feel like I always come back to video games. So if you have a webcomic with a lot of characters in a lot of places, and they're feeling pretty disconnected—it's just stuff out there and nothing seems to be satisfyingly connected—

36:34.80

Delphina

what kinds of macro and micro challenges are the characters facing? So in a video game context, this might be side quests versus plot quests that fit the theme. So if your theme is, “you can't ignore your problems and you need to do the hard work to fix them sometimes,” maybe the first thing I'm showing is my character, my main character, they burn their breakfast and they just dump a whole bunch of ketchup on it to make it okay.

37:02.70

Delphina

That's a micro action. My comic is not about breakfast or ketchup, but it's a quirk that I'm showing of that character. We're seeing the option they chose to try to make it okay. And that says something about them. So let's hang on to that and see where it goes, right? So maybe they're going out later and they talk to their friend who is planting in their garden and complaining, the recent storm uprooted everything and they have to redo their whole garden.

37:31.71

Delphina

And so the little video game side quest pops up. Character, please help me with this long and tedious task of replanting my garden.

37:43.40

Delphina

But we already know from the previous scene that they didn't redo their eggs in the morning. They didn't cook a new set of eggs. They just tried to dump some ketchup on it and fix it. So what's the dump the ketchup on it solution here? Maybe it's buying a bunch of fake plants and jamming them in the dirt. And, you know, now we've got this contrast between two characters because you saw what the friend character wanted was the actual hard work and the results of having a garden. But the contrast between the main characters is like, “Well, you didn't give me what I wanted you. You're actually making more work for me because I have to get rid of all this, like, plastic flowers that you jammed in my yard. Thanks for nothing, buddy.” So, now you're showing—you're introducing other characters into that mindset and challenging the main character's mindset in a small way.

38:41.39

Delphina

But again, my comic really isn't about the garden. It's not about fake plants. Maybe I want some magic thing. I'm doing a fantasy thing. And now I'm showing that they messed up this huge magic spell and they have to fix the effect of the magic that has gone wrong. And now the stakes are bigger. Maybe lives are at stake, and now they're seeing why the ketchup solution maybe wasn't the best solution. So what's the ketchup here that fails? And what do they learn and try to fix it with? That's it. And it all comes from the ketchup, right? You had a small thing that leads to a larger thing that leads to a larger thing. And I think that's what we've all been saying here.

39:24.88

Delphina

But one thing that—so I'm using the environment, and I'm using the small things and the character quirks to help me get there to my theme. And I think one pothole I see that people stumble into sometimes is that they don't really want to show anything outside their one main character. They have a character. They're going through some big emotions, but nothing thematically in the environment or the plot is giving me the tension I need to align with the themes that the author wants for me. Everything in the story is telling me their environment is fine. They have friends. They're giving us sassy one liners all the time. They are physically safe. They are not struggling with anything in their life.

40:13.40

Delphina

So I'm not gonna feel it as hard when you come up with their tragic backstory to tell me why they're actually sad. And in this case, I think there is a place for building a false sense of security or, “Hey, they're lying about their feelings,” or something.

40:28.81

Delphina

But you also have to give your readers indications that that sense of security is going to break. It's a fragile thing. And we're going to see the rough edges sometimes.

40:41.07

Delphina

One thing I think about, because apparently I can't stop thinking about video games, is Final Fantasy 7.

40:48.52

Miranda

That may be the theme of this episode.

40:51.15

Delphina

But maybe, I don't know.

40:52.08

Miranda

How everything ties back to video games.

40:55.19

Delphina

Video games are so good. But Final Fantasy 7, you have the Gold Saucer, right? And it's this Vegas-like, shiny, fancy place for rich people.

41:07.87

Delphina

And it's just—it's got the tinniest, happy music that you can imagine. Everything is just decadent and ridiculous to the point of—but you know it's not a happy story. You know, from everything else that's happened in Final Fantasy 7, this is not a happy place and this was built on the backs of some terrible stuff, so you see the rough edges. You have to see that happening and I feel like

41:42.37

Delphina

that's a nuance that you kind of work into your theme when you want to do kind of a switch like that, I want to say. But yeah, I think the thing, though, is to start simple and just get things out on the page and see where they go and see what kind of patterns that you notice because there's going to be patterns.

42:08.00

Delphina

And I just think it's beautiful to just kind of see.

42:14.13

Miranda

See them come to life.

42:15.16

Delphina

Yeah.

42:16.15

Miranda

Yeah. It's one thing I love about creating a story and reading stories is just seeing all the characters and their choices, and I and like you said, you can't just have everything be perfect and expect a theme to get through. And that's just a kind of basic storytelling principle is: you need a conflict. But your theme ties into how your, or I guess how your character handles the conflict—and how they act, whether it's dumping all the ketchup on the problem or not—

42:51.23

Miranda

should tie into the theme that you're wanting to convey and starting simple and then just kind of analyzing action by action and the snowball and… such great thoughts. Anyway, what about you, Phin? What advice do you have for someone stuck figuring out a theme?

43:15.05

Phin

Yeah, so I'm gonna suggest something super boring and that is: get your English literature knowledge out, take comics, video games, books that you like and do some literary analysis. Because that as a practice can help you see, hey, how are these authors implementing their themes? How are they working with it? What are their patterns? And then you can try and use this or apply this to your own work and see, okay, “What am I doing similarly? What am I doing differently?

43:57.33

Phin

Can I see similar patterns in my work?” And I think that's like, If you stretch your analytical muscles a little bit every once in a while and you go out and seek these things out in other people's works and analyze them you will have an easier time to be able to recognize similar patterns in your own work, because especially with people that maybe just started writing their own comics or younger people, for the most part the thing that you want to do is, “Oh, I have some cool characters and then I have a cool story idea and I just want to jump right in and I want to let everything play out,” and you might not actually think about what you're doing or what you want to achieve in the long run, because you have ideas for some cool scenes or you have this idea for the cool fight between your villain and your protagonist or whatever.

45:12.20

Phin

So I think, or for me it sometimes helps when I can take a step back and I read something else and then I go into analysis and I'm like, okay, “What are the themes here? What is resonating with me? What can I maybe also adapt for my own work?”

45:31.10

Phin

And it might sound a little bit tedious because you're basically like investing work into analyzing someone else's story, but I think in the end, it can be very helpful to learn some of the tools and learn some of the theory to then apply to your own work and maybe get a better understanding of what you're actually doing.

45:58.67

Miranda

Yeah, that's great advice. And coming from webcomics, where it's a visual medium in large part, so there's a lot of information about learning how to draw and learning art and referencing old art, other artists, and kind of using that to build and learn.

46:22.02

Miranda

But you don't get told a lot in the webcomic sphere to necessarily go and research literary analysis and how to write stories. And I think it's great that you pointed that out because that is so important and how you learn.

46:39.25

Miranda

And if there's one thing I've learned from being on this podcast in general is, all of our topics, all of our conversations all overlap, like theme overlaps with plot, overlaps with conflict, overlaps with sad wet cat Olympic tragic backstories. It all ties in together and you have to be able to know all of these aspects and understand them all to properly apply them. And so, it may be tedious, but I think it is so important, and I'm really glad you pointed that out, Phin. What about you, Krispy? What is your advice?

47:19.55

Krispy

I definitely want to point out the fact that, echoing Phin, it is really important to do these kind of studies. And I know that as soon as you hear the word studies you're like, “Ugh… long groan.” But like, you're sitting there you're playing some video games, you're playing Zelda you're playing Final Fantasy 7, these are things that you're sitting there enjoying these are the movies these are the whatever, this is all this media that you're enjoying so I think it's good to like reflect and be like, “Why do I enjoy this?” And maybe you're going to find that pattern, and maybe you're going to be like, “Oh, okay, this is why I want it in my work. This is why I'm inspired

47:56.13

Krispy

to do these things because I'm seeing like a lot of them, you know, explore these certain kinds of themes that I want to explore too.” And that can feed itself for that. As far as my advice is concerned, one thing that I've learned is kind of taking my story apart. And I like to make little lists

48:14.63

Krispy

or timelines. So put your characters down on a timeline and write down their motivations at the beginning of this little timeline and then start, on this little line that you have, writing down the major plot points or moments as you go along, and are you seeing something similar with their decisions that they're making? Like, why are they making them and what are these decisions doing for the story? And just kind of plotting that out and seeing what it looks like

48:45.98

Krispy

in that physical kind of form, you might start to see something interesting that you're subconsciously kind of writing. And then you can refine from there. You're going to see these little like, “Oh, man, I noticed that, when I'm putting these characters in situations, they're making these decisions a lot, like, what does that mean for me, writing that way?”

49:06.11

Krispy

And why are they always running away from certain decisions or why are they always putting ketchup on everything, like what is this ketchup bottle to them? And I'm noticing that like other people are also wielding this ketchup bottle for their burnt breakfasts. So when these things start to pop up, that's a good point, like Phin said and Delphie mentioned, to just analyze being like, “Hmm, this is coming up a lot. What does it mean for me personally?” Because I find that themes—as writers, creators, artists, I don't think that you need to cover every frickin’ facet of everything.

49:50.66

Krispy

Like, you know, nobody's experiences are a monolith. We're going to have a theme that we might share with other people, but we're going to be writing about it—we're going to be connecting to it—differently. We’ve touched about that in the beginning. And you know, I think that's just important to be like, “What do these stories mean to us? And what do we want to say to people?” And then you can have a theme that ties that nicely. It's cohesive. It just feels satisfying when you reach the end and be like, “I could see that. That was a good ride. The character arcs were satisfying and it made sense,” because themes help make sense of the big plots that we're trying to weave together, and I just think they're important.

50:31.44

Miranda

Mm hmm. Yeah, they really are so important. But I also feel like they're just not the obvious thing that you think of when you're plotting a story and hearing all of this, talking it through and just taking the time to think about it will make a difference in how your plot all comes together. And yeah, it's so important.

50:56.61

Krispy

It is!

50:58.20

Delphina

Yeah, and I feel like the thing is too, it's a little challenging, and I feel like it's very easy to be scared by this, right? It feels like, “If I don't have a point, should I even be doing this?”

51:10.17

Krispy

Yeah.

51:10.24

Delphina

“If I haven't figured it out, should I be doing this?” I'm like, you always have something to say. There is something in you that you want to say. And theme is just about saying it more effectively or like Krispy said, putting a bow on it and making it feel satisfying and being a little more deliberate about that.

51:34.79

Delphina

You're going to say something whether you're deliberate about it or not.

51:38.09

Delphina

But, like, if you can be deliberate about it, you're going to be more effective.

51:43.37

Miranda

Yeah, it's like making sure you're getting across the message that you want. And I think it was Phin that said earlier, other people might get a different theme that you didn't intend if you don't think about it. So just making sure that you're wrapping up the right package and presenting it so that that comes across in your work. And it's definitely like level two of writing at least. I mean, this is assuming there's like five levels. I don't know. It's like the next step to level up your writing, I guess, adding in a theme and focusing on it and making it come out in your work. And it just will elevate your work more than it was before.

52:33.63

Delphina

So it's not Hyrule Castle, but it's the Gerudo area, right?

52:36.01

Miranda

Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.

52:36.78

Delphina

Yeah.

52:39.47

Miranda

To bring it back to Zelda, our unintentional theme of the episode.

52:44.57

Krispy

Or was it intentional?

52:46.52

Miranda

I don't know, subconscious or conscious? Only you can tell us. I think that makes it a Gerudo salmon wrap.

52:59.06

Miranda

I don't know if Gerudo has salmon, but you know, it sounds good.

53:01.11

Krispy

Yummy

53:01.14

Delphina

No, they're in the desert. They don’t have fish in the desert.

53:04.13

Miranda

There's an oasis, there's a pond.

53:06.99

Miranda

Someone probably—there's like maybe one salmon in there. But I mean, someone found it and made a wrap.

53:11.31

Delphina

Oh my gosh, this is thematically bothering me a lot.

53:15.66

Miranda

Okay, all right. Well, what kind of wrap would they have in Gerudo?

53:19.84

Delphina

Oh, they've got, I want to say tortillas.

53:20.36

Miranda

Or like...

53:23.38

Miranda

Oh yeah, okay.

53:23.12

Delphina

They've got like a good, uh, Molduga meat.

53:26.58

Krispy

Oh, Molduga.

53:26.18

Delphina

Like they could.

53:27.87

Miranda

It's a Molduga tostada.

53:27.84

Delphina

Yeah, there we go.

53:29.52

Krispy

Ooh!

53:30.03

Miranda

How about that?

53:29.90

Delphina

Oh, beautiful.

53:35.02

Miranda

I've been your host, Miranda, and you can find my comic and other work at mirandacakes.art.

53:42.76

Delphina

And I've been Delphina. You can find my webcomic, Sombulus at sombulus.com.

53:48.52

Phin

I've been Phin, you can find my work at heirsoftheveil.com

53:52.44

Krispy

And I'm Krispy, you can find my work at ghostjunksickness.com or lunarblight.com. I'm so excited to have a Molduga tostada.

54:01.26

Miranda

Yeah, that’s great. Oh my gosh, ketchup.

54:01.42

Delphina

Put some ketchup on it.