Drawing anatomy and poses can be tricky, but there's some excellent tools out there for referencing poses like the awesome stuff that Sarah makes at adorkastock.com. But how DO we do it in an effective way? Let's talk about it!

In this Episode:

• What is stock imagery?  How is it intended to be used, and how do you figure out poses to choose when planning a photo shoot?
• Talking about the importance of stock imagery, especially for anatomy and diversity.
• What is your advice for someone who is not great at drawing anatomy and wants to use something like AdorkaStock's resources to get better?

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Episode Release Date: July 2, 2025

Episode Credits:

Ally Rom Colthoff (Varethane) - she/they, chirault.sevensmith.net wychwoodcomic.com

Kristen Lee (Krispy) - she/they, https://ghostjunksickness.com https://www.lunarblight.com

Miranda Schwemmer - she/her, https://mirandacakes.art https://intotheswellcomic.com

Guest Host Sarah Forde - she/her, AdorkaStock.com AdorkaBows.com

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The Intro "DO IT (feat. Shia LaBeouf)", and the Outro "It's Good To See You Again!!", both by Adrianwave, have been used and modified in good faith under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Licensed. Edits include: Fade IN/OUT, and a repeat added to the beginning of "It's Good To See You Again!!". For more information on this creative commons use, please reference https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.

Transcription

This transcript is auto generated by our recording software.

Krispy

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be chatting about drawing from photography using the incredible resources that is AdorkaStock featuring our nice guest, Sarah.

00:00:25.37

Krispy

My name's Krispy. I use she/they pronouns. and I make the comics Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight. Sarah, why don't you introduce yourself?

00:00:34.33

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Hi friends, my name is Sarah. I use she/her pronouns. A lot of people know me as AdorkaStock. I've been providing post references for artists for going on 18 years, which is a really long time to be doing a thing. And I'm here today to talk about that.

00:01:11.70

Miranda

I'm Miranda, I use she/her pronouns, and I make the webcomic Into the Swell.

00:01:18.98

Varethane

And I'm Varethane, I use she/they pronouns, and I make the webcomics Chirault and Wychwood.

00:01:26.31

Krispy

Okie dokie smoky. So drawing anatomy and poses can be absolutely tricky, but there's some excellent tools out there for referencing poses and whatnot. And we're going to be talking. We have absolutely the honor of talking to Sarah, who is AdorkaStock and has made that, like she said, for 18 years, an amazing resource for folks.

00:01:50.52

Krispy

But how do we use it in an effective way? How do we actually, you know, really learn from this and grow from using references like AdorkaStock?

00:02:03.16

Krispy

So we're going chat about that. And so the first question I kind of have is, what is stock imagery? How is it intended to be used? How do you figure out poses? Sarah, take it away. I'd love to know kind of the meat and potatoes of AdorkaStock.

00:02:20.78

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Yeah, so one thing that's kind of interesting is how I ended up here, which will kind of answer this question the long way around. When I was drawing after college, during college, I had access to life drawing classes, which is how I did most of my figure studies.

00:02:35.14

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And after college, I was wont for that experience. And I realized pretty quickly that I sort of needed that to keep my drawing chops up so to speak. So originally I went to DeviantArt which is where I could find what was considered stock photos at the time but most of what people were doing at that time was for photomanipulation. So they were taking pictures in costumes, they were done up as characters, and people were using those to make like book covers and posters and things like that, which was very cool but it wasn't kind of what I needed.

00:03:12.76

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I mean, there was nude photography available, but I needed, I didn't want like classic poses. I wanted like dynamic action poses.

00:03:18.04

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:03:20.16

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So I was sort of reduced to people dressed as fairies or people dressed in bathing suit character. Kind of had to look for that type of photography, which I kind of used up pretty quickly because it wasn't a commonly used theme in this space. So eventually what happened was I just said okay I think I just have to start taking my own photos for myself. And that's how I started, is I was illustrating and I needed my own references, so I started doing that and people loved it.

00:03:54.41

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I was like, this is great, you know? and But it was great for me too, because as an artist, I don't know how much you all know about aphantasia, which is the inability to have pictures in your head.

00:04:03.50

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:04:04.72

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So that's me, I don't have head pictures. And even though I had this history of life drawing and I had done all this study, if I don't keep up feeding the beast, I lose the information.

00:04:16.06

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So I had to continuously feed myself these new references in order to keep up the skillset. So that's how I ended up doing this. And I've already forgotten the question.

00:04:28.00

Krispy

So we're talking about your origin stories, which is absolutely incredible that it started from DeviantArt, absolutely have been there for getting poses.

00:04:37.01

Krispy

And it was definitely where, you know, that's where I started with AdorkaStock all those years ago.

00:04:42.63

Varethane

Same too when people were passing it around on DeviantArt way back in the day, back when it was under a different name, but fond memories of the DeviantArt days.

00:04:43.66

Krispy

Yeah. Oh,

00:04:51.13

Krispy

yeah. Yeah.

00:04:53.95

Krispy

Oh my god, yeah, you're right. It wasn't a different name. What was the other name?

00:04:57.84

Varethane

Senshi stock.

00:04:58.01

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Yes, yes that was the original, because originally I was illustrating Sailor Moon characters. Like that was my primary fandom, and I was drawing people's OCs and stuff.

00:05:10.66

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And so I was taking photos for that specific purpose, like Magical Girl themed things. And of course, the name was just, everybody on DeviantArt that was doing stock photos had like something stock.

00:05:22.65

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You know like, there was Fae stock, and Pirate Lotus stock, and all these people that had this obvious naming convention.

00:05:23.90

Krispy

Yeah.

00:05:28.54

Sarah/AdorkaStock

i was like, I want to fit in.

00:05:30.93

Varethane

Yeah, as a young, like, nerdy artist in that time period, like, Senshi Stock was legendary among my friends, so...

00:05:31.31

Sarah/AdorkaStock

and and

00:05:36.39

Krispy

Yes. Yup.

00:05:38.28

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Yeah, and as it started, like it started off really, I mean, I love to tell this story because I just think it's funny in retrospect, but when I first started posting my really terrible low res digital, like I had like a Panasonic point and shoot, it had like a three second timer, it was like a really old, I think it was It was like a early to mid 2000 point and shoot camera. So this thing was like, you know, it had seen its day long past.

00:06:03.51

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I would post these images that were, oh, like 600 by 900 pixels.

00:06:04.04

Miranda

Rude.

00:06:08.32

Sarah/AdorkaStock

They were small. And my entire gallery got scrapped. So DeviantArt moderators looked at what I was making and said, this is literally trash and just kind of threw it in the bin.

00:06:16.26

Krispy

oh

00:06:18.53

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I was really, really upset. I was like, these are fine for drawing references, which is what I'm making, but they weren't good enough or high quality enough for photomanipulations because they were not professional photography.

00:06:20.73

Krispy

Yeah!

00:06:29.58

Krispy

who

00:06:29.55

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So they said, nope, you can't put these in our gallery. Like DeviantArt used to actually be moderated, which I would-it's hilarious now.

00:06:36.19

Krispy

ah Yeah.

00:06:36.23

Sarah/AdorkaStock

um

00:06:37.15

Krispy

Oh

00:06:38.42

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But there used to be gallery moderators who kept a certain standard of quality for their prospective areas. And it was, you know, community run and everything. And so they said, no, you know, you can't post these, these aren't good enough.

00:06:51.70

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I like I had a real fit about it because I was, you know, 27 or whatever, and I was really upset and I did what I could to try to make them better. So I got a better light and I tried to do some stuff to make them better. And I got, I didn't crop them as tight. This is the dumbest part is that it had to be a minimum of, you know, let's say what it was 1200 pixels or whatever.

00:07:12.81

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So I just wouldn't crop it as small to the figure. I would leave all the blank space around the figure to make it big enough to hit their like required minimum size.

00:07:16.90

Krispy

Oh my gosh.

00:07:24.17

Miranda

Amazing.

00:07:24.65

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So,

00:07:25.79

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I was like a real thorn in their side when I first started posting because they were like, oh my God, this girl doesn't get it. She's like, she's making trash and we hate it and she's in our space.

00:07:36.59

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Why are you here? And, but the people who were finding it were like, God, this is great. This is exactly what I needed. It's so easy to see your shape and thank you for not wearing a big dress and I can see your knees and I love this.

00:07:48.66

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And so it was this, I knew what I was doing was helpful and helping people and it was helping me. And I felt very like, my ego is very bruised by them being like, well, you're not, it's not good enough.

00:08:00.74

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I was like, listen, I just got out of college. I have no money. I can't go buy a fancy camera. I can't take professional photographs. This is what I can do. Please let me do it.

00:08:09.81

Krispy

Yeah.

00:08:12.49

Krispy

You know, and it's interesting. We had an episode earlier about 3D models in art and using that. And I think it's a great resource. Any resource for learning art and getting better and, you know, making the process easier for you is A plus plus plus plus.

00:08:29.80

Krispy

But you mentioning like, you know, I can see your knees and stuff like that. It's just, we're going to get into that in this episode about why it's so important to use these sorts of references, especially like photography and like life drawing and whatnot.

00:08:44.43

Krispy

There's just that certain way that, you know, 3D cannot... like replicate with how the body moves and how diverse and whatnot it is. So this is going to be how and why it's so integral to that.

00:08:58.74

Krispy

And I did want to ask both Miranda and Thane just kind of general questions before we jump into that, you know, because we were talking about our original question about, you know, how it's intended to be used and whatnot.

00:09:12.18

Krispy

You know, do you too, I know Thane did, but you know, Miranda, what's your experience in using photo shoots and references like this?

00:09:23.11

Miranda

So as someone who never went to art school, so I never had like real life drawing classes to reference. And I started my art journey late in life when AdorkaStock was already a thing.

00:09:37.83

Miranda

Like I might have come like right before the name change because I remember Senshi Stock and I remember the name change announcement.

00:09:45.11

Miranda

But like I never had the but life drawing experience. So learning to do anatomy, essentially it all came from online learning because I didn't go to school. I was self-taught. And so my life drawing, air quotes, is using things like AdorkaStock because that's the closest I've gotten.

00:10:11.47

Krispy

Yeah.

00:10:11.57

Miranda

And it's amazing how much it helps to just like I can visualize an image or like a pose that I want. Like, okay, this is the pose I want.

00:10:22.79

Miranda

i can But it doesn't get to the paper. And I need that reference of the pose I want to kind of connect those dots and just like see how the muscles actually move, see where the knees are going.

00:10:37.58

Miranda

And it's invaluable as a resource. And I think especially these days when so much is on the internet and yet it's still so hard to find good reference photos. So there's an obvious need for it. And AdorkaStock is doing amazing at filling that need.

00:10:59.63

Miranda

But yeah, it's like, so again, my primary life drawing experience has been with online resources like this and I would probably not be where I'm at without that.

00:11:14.61

Krispy

Yeah for sure. How do you feel about that, Thane, too? Talk to me about your journey.

00:11:27.21

Varethane

Yeah, so it is funny that you mentioned the whole like life drawing thing, because one of my favorite features on the AdorkaStock website is that basically, you can create like a little life drawing session for yourself with the little timed, like, you know, 30 second poses, and it'll go through.

00:11:51.95

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:11:52.20

Miranda

Yes. So

00:11:53.73

Varethane

Like that automated, like you can kind of build that. I think that kind of thing is incredible. I feel like when it comes to stock photos or photo references, that kind of thing, there's sort of two main goals with using it.

00:12:07.46

Varethane

Like one can be really situational. Like I'm working on this specific piece right now and I need a picture, like the character is going to be standing in the foreground, like looking up at a balcony high above them, and they're reaching their arm out like over their head with their fingers like splayed out, like they're trying to grab something in the air. And getting a reference for that pose from that angle or like a handful of different poses that you can kind of approach it from like, here's a person with their handout, here's a person from this angle, but like the rest of it's different, you kind of collage them together.

00:12:39.24

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:12:41.42

Varethane

And that's very like situational, like you can kind of use that for this one piece, like I need this, this thing here to be specific. But then there's like, also just the whole building a mental library, like expanding your own repertoire of figures, and getting faster at coming up with those kind of on the fly and doing life drawing studies outside of those situational cases, like just being like, I'm just going to draw these poses.

00:13:14.27

Krispy

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:13:14.48

Varethane

And just practice, like get that figure drawing. I think that's also really important and helps a lot with kind of like-also just coming up with the poses in the first place, like seeing what's possible, what can look kind of interesting.

00:13:28.68

Varethane

And yeah, so I use I use photo references myself, both from like online sources. I also will take my own photo references sometimes if because occasionally something is just so specific or like I know that the time it would take for me to search for it especially things like hand positions like they've got to be grabbing something really tightly but one of their fingers is out in a weird way like I'm just going to look at my own hand and sometimes I'll just be like drawing my left hand with my right hand like I'm looking like back and forth or I'll take a picture of it if I need like a specific pose that isn't

00:14:06.13

Varethane

one of the angles that I can see easily. So I have like a I saved some pictures.

00:14:10.98

Miranda

So many hand photos and ever in all of our camera rolls.

00:14:12.74

Varethane

Oh, yeah.

00:14:14.94

Krispy

ah

00:14:14.99

Varethane

Well, hands are notorious. Like that's one of the things it's like a meme among artists like hands are hard. Personally, I find feet harder, but like hands. It's nice just to have a visual as you're trying to draw it.

00:14:28.24

Varethane

Those fingers, they just go everywhere.

00:14:32.55

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I've got a book for that.

00:14:34.15

Krispy

Yes! Yes!

00:14:37.95

Varethane

Well, books, books, definitely also really useful. One of the things that I did also want to mention kind of before we move on is that I've been teaching classes at a local school. Not life drawing specifically, but drawing in perspective and also in digital painting.

00:14:41.02

Krispy

ah

00:14:57.25

Varethane

And one of the things that like the first thing that I tell students to do when they're beginning an assignment is like find some references, build a mood board to tell me what you want to do before they even get to the point of doing thumbnails, just so that they can decide, like, I want to do like a cool

00:15:12.85

Varethane

like mountain landscape, or I want to do like an action shot of somebody running on like an exploding freeway or something like just, just to distill that intent. And when they get to that stage of like kind of finding the pose images for the character, I often will point them to AdorkaStock specifically, just because it's so useful. And I like the options for searching by camera angle, like the high and low camera angle options, as well as having the filter for floating poses, like the underwater shoots, like the incredible. Nowhere else has those.

00:15:46.04

Krispy

Yes.

00:15:47.27

Miranda

Oh, yeah.

00:15:50.40

Varethane

It's great.

00:15:51.38

Miranda

Yeah, the tags on that site are so excellent and just make searching so much easier.

00:15:59.34

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I'm really happy to hear that because I feel like the Sketch app, I think, is pretty well done. And I've made a large investment to try to make that like as good as I could at the start.

00:16:13.79

Sarah/AdorkaStock

The actual website gallery needs a little bit of help is my goal this year is to continue to improve that. It's actually kind of funny because people are like, oh, well, can't you just take all the images on the Sketch app and dump them on the site? And that's not really how WordPress works.

00:16:28.33

Krispy

Yeah.

00:16:28.80

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So and I actually go through each image and add it to the site and tag it. And you know the extensive tagging system is part of the reason why this takes forever, but I think it's worth it in the long run because then it's just, I'm trying to recreate what we used to have when we were able to do categories and search.

00:16:45.61

Varethane

Yeah, well, like getting that, like the searchability, like being able to find the right reference is like probably the most important thing because so many people will just give up, like they'll do a couple searches, be like, I didn't find it.

00:16:58.32

Varethane

I got to turn elsewhere, change the pose or something. So it's it definitely like tagging systems and all that.

00:17:06.32

Varethane

It's a lot of work, but I think it's valuable just to be able to kind of connect with the right thing for what for what's needed.

00:17:15.12

Miranda

Yeah, your effort on that is very appreciated.

00:17:18.49

Krispy

Yep. 100%.

00:17:19.55

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Great. I'll keep it up.

00:17:22.36

Miranda

Thank you.

00:17:23.94

Krispy

And there's 100% a reason why we're so on team AdorkaStock. Like we've said previously, this has been actually a part of, you know, many artists', mine included, lives for a long time. I mean, I feel like I've been there for at least 15 years using these as something I refer to in my own art. So this is, like Miranda said, invaluable. This access to having resources where it's tagged, we have you know the option to do and create our own

00:17:57.29

Krispy

life drawing experiences and whatnot like this is very much appreciated. And I think it's just integral from that. And continuing on I'm going to continue or talk about the importance of specifically learning from life and that comes with something that I'm not seeing whole lot in the kind of 3D modeling sphere, is the diversity that you can't really get from individuals taking pictures of, you know, life and how amazing that is that AdorkaStock has

00:18:37.41

Krispy

access to, well, body diversity and how important it is to learn from that specifically. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about the importance of anatomy in diversity in stock imagery. And Sarah, I just, I want to open the floor to you for that. You know, what was something that inspired you to kind of go to this route to make sure to include different body types and whatnot?

00:19:04.32

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So I would say that it still probably 80% of the photos, if not more, are still of me. I am my most easily accessible model.

00:19:13.85

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But shortly after, I think it was just about during COVID, I saw a huge increase in followers. Everybody was at home. People were picking up new hobbies. They were talking about, how do I get better at drawing? What do I do? So I had a big jump in followers, patrons, you know, everything during COVID. And what I pretty much did was immediately take that money and say, how can I, you know-so before that I had been, my diversity was like a friend I knew.

00:19:46.22

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Can you come over?

00:19:46.49

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:19:46.98

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Like, I would reach out to my friends and say, would you like to come over my house and model in your underwear?

00:19:52.27

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I have a lot of, you know, outgoing and adventurous and some esoteric and weird friends. And so to them, this sounds like a good time. And so at the beginning, it was just like, hey, friends, who wants to do this weird thing with me?

00:20:07.13

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Because I just wanted to have more people, right? Because you can do stuff with multiple people that you can't alone or juxtaposing yourself with yourself. So that's how my diversity started, was just begging people I knew.

00:20:20.04

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And then once I started making enough money that I felt like I could actually you know invest in, it sort of coincided with this has to be your job and now it is your job. So I was able to start reaching out to people like the next degree out so I'd be like, okay does anyone know a model that would want to do this? It might not be my friend but like a friend of a friend. So that's how I started kind of networking, but it was still just like people I knew and like people that they knew you know and I've actually for the most part kind of kept it like that.

00:20:53.49

Krispy

Yeah. yeah

00:20:58.20

Sarah/AdorkaStock

There's been a couple of models that I've hired that I've found sort of outside of that realm where sometimes people will approach me and say, oh, I'd like to model for you. But being able to pay someone to model significantly increases their desire to participate, I found.

00:21:12.52

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So yeah, that has helped a lot with increasing diversity there.

00:21:20.05

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I still have like a wish list, right, of like people I want to hire. So obviously, like older people. So middle aged white lady was a goal of mine.

00:21:27.69

Krispy

Yes.

00:21:29.87

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I'm that now. So we're good.

00:21:33.58

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I got it. I did it. So, you know, moving forward, it's like yeah I want very old people. You know, I'd like to hire some very old models. And a lot of what I get from the people that I approach, first of all, I don't know a lot of very old models who are modeling. And if they are, a lot of them look very young. They don't look 60 or 70. They look like a 40-year-old, but they're 70. You know what I mean?

00:21:58.63

Krispy

Yeah.

00:21:58.94

Sarah/AdorkaStock

They're modeling because they look so young and fit. And it's the opposite of kind of what I'm going...

00:22:02.59

Krispy

Yeah.

00:22:04.73

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Not that they would be bad models, and I would still love to have them as a model, but I'm looking for like grannies in chairs, right?

00:22:10.77

Krispy

Yeah.

00:22:11.72

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And, you know, I think a lot about Skydancer Stock, Marion, who has a huge gallery on DeviantArt. He's the guy that you always see, looks like a wizard. If you look up.

00:22:21.58

Krispy

Yes.

00:22:22.10

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Yes. Okay, Marion. So he passed a couple of years ago.

00:22:24.88

Krispy

Oh.

00:22:25.03

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I think about him a lot because that's, you know, he was that old guy doing modeling, you know, and he was everyone's wizard. That's what he was, you know.

00:22:33.46

Krispy

Yeah.

00:22:35.02

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And so I'm like, when people tell me, oh, no one wants to see that no one wants to, you know, and I'm like, gosh, we do, though.

00:22:42.43

Krispy

yeah

00:22:43.59

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Yeah so that's how I ended up sort of starting to reach out, you know, "Here's the thing, I think, with what I'm doing," and people I know people will say, oh, thank you so much for doing this. I'm so glad you have models of different skin colors and models of different weights and different skills and stuff like that. And I love to be able to do it, but don't I wish that there were more people in those categories who were doing this themselves?

00:23:07.25

Krispy

Yeah.

00:23:07.98

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I wish, you know, because everyone that's ever approached me and been like, I want to do what you do.

00:23:11.90

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I'm like, here's everything I know, right?

00:23:13.90

Krispy

Yeah.

00:23:14.79

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Like most of the people that you know, other than me, that are doing pose reference modeling have at some point like been like, hey, Sarah, how did you start doing this? And I've always just been like, here's how to do it. Here's everything I know.

00:23:27.91

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Go run. And so. And then it's like that it's the catch 22 of is there somebody out there? Do we have, you know, some people out there who are doing these.

00:23:42.98

Sarah/AdorkaStock

We have Ruby, so fatphotoref.com.

00:23:45.01

Krispy

Yes. Yes.

00:23:46.94

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Ruby is doing it. Not to the level and extent, really, because of you know situational stuff. But yeah I'm like, yes, yeah shout about this resource. It's a phenomenal resource.

00:23:58.70

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So you know, if anyone listens to this and they're like, you know what?

00:23:58.74

Krispy

Yeah.

00:24:03.64

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I am that. I am an underrepresented person. Underrepresented you know, size, shape, color in this, in this place, I should do it. You should do it.

00:24:14.69

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Yes.

00:24:15.18

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And then tell me you're doing it.

00:24:15.56

Krispy

yeah

00:24:16.71

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I'll yell that you're doing it.

00:24:20.44

Krispy

Yeah, no, I agree. I think like, you know, it sounds like there is that that community aspect that helps boost it because, you know, one person can't do everything because, you know, there's a lot to cover. That's just the biggest thing. And especially why diversity is so important.

00:24:39.67

Krispy

You know, learning as an artist to get away from like a lot of the things that we fall into, you know, just our...

00:24:49.90

Krispy

styles and whatnot things that we're inspired by and just why it's so important to have that access to that and whatnot. I'm going to throw this over Miranda, like, you know, thinking about anatomy and diversity, and you were saying that, you know, you were later in the game with starting your art and whatnot, and talking about him how integral it was that you had access to AdorkaStock, you know, what does having that access to more diversity in these references mean to you in your work?

00:25:25.99

Miranda

Well, I am a very basic white person. So like I myself in my immediate life, I don't have a lot of diversity because I am white. My husband's white. My kids are white. Like, that's just what we are.

00:25:43.23

Miranda

So as an artist, especially webcomics and like working on the webcomic now, I'm trying to be more conscious of having diverse characters and having people that look different than me and what I'm used to.

00:26:01.20

Miranda

And as like the only way for me to do that is with references because I can't just imagine up this diverse character.

00:26:12.00

Miranda

Like, I can have a thought in my head, but like I need to I need to see it to actually be able to bring it to life better. And for that, I need reference photos.

00:26:23.32

Miranda

And like I have one of my characters I'm working on. She's a short little witch, and I just have this image of her being very pear shaped and kind of chubby and just this cute little witch character.

00:26:39.56

Miranda

And I have this image just stuck in my mind, but it's so hard to find the right reference for it. And I went and I tried to do a 3D model, but you can't replicate the real life look on 3D, especially if you're trying to get...

00:26:53.12

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:26:56.40

Miranda

bigger.

00:26:57.80

Krispy

yeah

00:26:58.12

Miranda

Like it just, it doesn't have the fat laying the right way. Like it just doesn't have the life that comes from using a picture of a real person.

00:27:10.73

Miranda

And it's so like, if we I think it's just something that like, if we want to see more variety and diversity in art, especially from like white creators, if we want white creators to branch out, they need to be able to have the resource. And like I'm not trying to put this on resource providers. like even if you're white like me, you should at least try.

00:27:39.23

Miranda

Like, but just in the context of this, having the references available just makes it easier. And then it's just like, why aren't you using these? Like, they're here for you.

00:27:49.50

Krispy

yes

00:27:51.25

Miranda

Use them. Bring that diversity to your creations and to your work, because it's, it's just more meaningful that way. I feel like I'm just going to start repeating myself, but yeah, like having the diverse references, it's one thing to want to do it, but especially if you're a newer artist, you don't always have the tools and ability to just do it.

00:28:20.86

Miranda

Like,

00:28:21.28

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:28:22.54

Miranda

on your own, from your brain, whatever. And like, I think people that are really experienced with anatomy and have practiced a lot more than I have can probably take a one body type in a pose and translate it into a different body type with the same pose or whatnot.

00:28:45.02

Miranda

I'm not quite there yet. I try, it's really hard for me. I more need to see the exact body type in the exact pose, is like my ideal situation.

00:28:57.79

Miranda

And so, yeah, like I love seeing all the variety of reference and body types that are coming up on AdorkaStock and all the like, I feel like it's starting to kind of spread.

00:29:12.77

Miranda

But it just, like, we need more of it.

00:29:17.07

Krispy

I keep thinking of when Sarah talked about the knee and I'm just like, I go back to that because I'm just like, you can't, really replicate that without seeing a human knee, which I know sounds weird, but it's just the intricacies that you can't replicate like with, you know, certain kind of assets like 3D or anything like that.

00:29:32.98

Miranda

Like, yeah.

00:29:40.98

Krispy

And everybody's different. Everybody's knee is different too. You're not going to draw the same knee. And I'm so sorry I keep going back to the knee, but the knee at that point, I'm just like, that's exactly it though.

00:29:51.90

Krispy

Is that seeing how a knee works in this, you know, kind of like context with this kind of body type.

00:29:52.01

Miranda

Yeah.

00:29:58.74

Krispy

Yes. And then it's going to change.

00:30:01.17

Miranda

Yes. Like it's, it just changes so much.

00:30:06.25

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I do think it's the need and understanding of more diverse references is spreading because I will see it, you know, I'll see it in artist spaces. I'll see it in even the-I would say it's like the community, the post-reference creator community is not that big, right? Like there's not a ton of us and we all sort of know each other.

00:30:28.24

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Most of us are friends. And so, you know, when I see somebody, you know, I see somebody doing something and I'm like, yes, yes, that go in that direction, you know, like when I see it happening and spreading, then, you know, I find great joy in that because

00:30:39.88

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:30:45.85

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:30:50.53

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I know what people are asking me for. And then, you know, if I do it and then other people see me do it and then they say, oh, that went well, I should do that too.

00:31:02.67

Sarah/AdorkaStock

That's good. Like lot of times people say like, oh, I don't, you know, not for nothing, but obviously my non like, you know, non-thin-young models get more crap, right?

00:31:15.94

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Like when I post photos online,

00:31:19.85

Sarah/AdorkaStock

you know the only the post that I had go the most viral on Facebook, for example, was Lauren Ashley. She's my biggest model. And so when I do this and I'm posting these references, I'm buffering them from the worst of that, right. If it's them posting it, then they're getting that.

00:31:40.30

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So that sounds very like, oh, look at me, the thin young white woman protecting. But it there is a level of protection that they don't have to look at that crap.

00:31:49.01

Krispy

yeah yeah yeah

00:31:51.01

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Do you know what I'm saying?

00:31:52.12

Miranda

Mm-hmm.

00:31:52.16

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And so that's the part where I feel like I'm help, like that's helpful.

00:31:52.26

Miranda

Mm-hmm.

00:31:58.05

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But, you know, Lauren exists as a model on the internet. She also will experience that stuff directly. We could do a whole episode about body image and having this be your job on the internet, right?

00:32:09.82

Krispy

yeah

00:32:11.88

Sarah/AdorkaStock

That's a whole other episode we could talk about.

00:32:13.06

Krispy

yeah

00:32:15.54

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But, you know, it's like, It takes a certain, what I'm saying is I understand why people who are in these categories are not necessarily putting themselves out there.

00:32:25.97

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Because I am in a privileged category and I still, I mean, the amount of crap, you know what I'm saying?

00:32:26.03

Krispy

Yeah. yeah

00:32:33.10

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And so, yeah, I get it.

00:32:33.32

Krispy

Yeah.

00:32:36.35

Varethane

Yeah, it's something that I've done life drawing in person and for a long time. I mean, I'm still loosely in the group. I just haven't been able to make it to their meetings for a while. But there's this group in my city, which is kind of a loosely organized

00:32:56.37

Varethane

collection of friends who are artists and they'll gather once a week and do life drawing, just using each other as models. Like usually somebody will volunteer to kind of go up in front of the group and do poses.

00:33:08.78

Varethane

And then they'll reach out to other friends of theirs. And through this group, I've met a lot of a lot of folks from a lot of different backgrounds who are willing to do these modeling sessions and like put themselves in front of this of this bunch of artists who are going to draw them for like three hours in exchange mostly just for like cookies and stuff.

00:33:27.58

Varethane

But I feel like so part of me is like, I know that there's like lots of people out there who are who are interested in this that you know, people like to see themselves be drawn.

00:33:37.18

Varethane

And especially if they're involved in like the arts community already, a lot of them are in like theater. I don't think that's a coincidence.

00:33:44.22

Miranda

yeah

00:33:45.04

Varethane

Or they might be involved in burlesque, like with the queer community. But it definitely does change something when the images are being put on the internet.

00:33:52.96

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:33:53.30

Varethane

And rather than being an intimate group of friends, it's kind of now open a little bit more to the public. So when you were mentioning that about like people, like I feel like I might know some folks through that group who potentially would be interested in getting paid to model.

00:34:08.22

Varethane

But I could see it going either way just because I can also understand like hesitation about that side of things, but yeah I'll put some word out there we'll see we'll see where it goes. But yeah also the point about the specificity of design that you guys were talking about, like that thing with like the knee and so on, I feel like

00:34:16.10

Miranda

Mm-hmm.

00:34:32.84

Varethane

it really is that specificity where character designs and where characters truly come to life. Like, just those little things like you've chosen to give them really sharp cheekbones, or like an angled jaw, or maybe like they have like a, maybe they're larger, but they have really, really thin wrists and ankles, because you know, sometimes like the, you know, these quirks of body shape, like things can happen.

00:34:58.21

Varethane

You might make like decisions like that. But then if it's not your own body type or something that you're super familiar with, when you get to certain angles, there's this, especially as a webcomic artist, when you have to like, I need to put this page out for Wednesday, I can't spend this much time on it.

00:35:17.15

Varethane

Like you might want to rush through things or just invent certain details, like fill them in from your mental library, and depending on how big that mental library is,

00:35:23.89

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:35:27.13

Varethane

it can be more successful or it can be less successful. But like if you have access to a reference that just shows the thing, it can remove a lot of that guesswork and bring back that specific nature that makes it feel more true to life and that helps things just land a bit a bit more solidly.

00:35:47.09

Varethane

Because something that-and it's not just with drawings of people that this tends to happen, but the idea of, I'm just going to assume that I know what it looks like,

00:35:55.22

Krispy

Yep.

00:35:55.33

Varethane

is something that all artists have to face with everything that you draw. Like if you, you know, tell a kid to draw a tree, And they'll do that, like, you know, the cloud shape and then the stick coming out the bottom of it that just meets the ground.

00:36:08.38

Varethane

But then if you tell them to look at a tree, now you see all these different branch shapes and like, you know, oh, each leaf is like an individual little plane that comes out of it. And they grow in clusters or they grow in like spread out shapes.

00:36:20.09

Miranda

Thank you.

00:36:20.34

Varethane

I've also seen people do exercises where they'll be like draw, like even a professional artist who's been doing this for years, you could be like draw a bicycle from memory.

00:36:32.46

Varethane

And then, you know, you draw the bicycle from memory and then beside it, you say, now draw a bicycle from reference, like look up a picture.

00:36:38.07

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:36:39.59

Varethane

And like the first one, the bicycle from memory might look convincingly like a bicycle. But then when you see it placed beside the real thing, you see all these spots where they were kind of assuming and inferring things like, okay, I guess the chain is kind of shaped like that. Like, where does this bar go under the seat?

00:36:58.75

Varethane

is it like Is it angled backwards or is it angled upward?

00:36:59.29

Krispy

but

00:37:01.51

Varethane

Like, what happens there? And you know you're just making these calls based on like, that's what I think I remember it looks like.

00:37:09.28

Varethane

But it's totally it is different from being able to see it. And yeah, that's where reference fills the gap.

00:37:12.85

Krispy

Yep.

00:37:13.16

Miranda

yeah

00:37:16.54

Krispy

I do these little workshops in Screen Tones. And one of the things that I would always say during this is just draw what you see, not what you think you see. And I always see when folks start to do like drawings of anatomy, they start to fix things.

00:37:31.66

Krispy

Like I'm going back to this. They try to fix the knee. And it's just like, no, the knees do look like that. Like that there are different shapes and stuff like that in planes that you're going to have to put into because they don't all look cookie cutter with that, which is why it's just very important to see references from life.

00:37:51.77

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So that was one thing when I was in life drawing class, when I was in college, the teachers like very early on in the class, they were like, remember, you're drawing what you see and not what you think you see. And my little aphant mind is sitting in the corner going, what the hell else would I draw?

00:38:08.42

Krispy

You.

00:38:08.98

Miranda

yeah

00:38:09.92

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So like for me, that was always such a weird phrase. I always thought that was so strange because I'm sitting here in this class and I'm like,

00:38:21.58

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I'm drawing what's in front, there's nothing else. And so to now, but I didn't, I wasn't aware that other people had brain pictures.

00:38:28.82

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So to like, it's the same thing when people in books are like, you know, whenever anybody in a book is like visualizing to like do magic, to me, that was always like, I don't know, like, because they were magical or like, it was symbolic of the fantasy.

00:38:40.78

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:38:49.13

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Which is crazy because I have friends who are like, you know, hyper phantasia.

00:38:49.20

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:38:56.30

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Like they're the opposite end of the spectrum. So they can close their eyes, see a whole picture and then, you know, make the picture, right? More or less. Like it takes them time and effort to pull it into the physical, right?

00:39:07.70

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But they can like... go back to a picture and have the same picture and work towards that goal.

00:39:12.01

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:39:14.14

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I'm just like, man, I just, I need a dragon and a castle and I need a, you know, and then like, I'm going to look at cloud phone. Like there's just no way, you know, it's so I don't, I don't know if you guys know, but I don't illustrate anymore.

00:39:28.10

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Part of it was burnout, but part of it was that I felt like I had reached like the limitations of my technical ability. So like, I was drawing at a level that I liked, was satisfied with, and didn't feel the need to like try to learn the next step.

00:39:48.03

Krispy

Yeah.

00:39:48.60

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So part of this might be the ADHD, but like I got to the point where I was like, you know what? I feel like I have achieved as much as I really ever set out to. And I'm going to go make hair bows now.

00:40:01.81

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I was like, you know, and it's like, I joke that my special interests have like a 30 year life cycle.

00:40:01.94

Miranda

Thank you.

00:40:08.97

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So it just, you know, I drew from as a child until about 30 and then I switched and we'll see how long bows last. But you know, to say like, oh, yeah, it's the mind horse.

00:40:20.54

Sarah/AdorkaStock

We were just doing this on Bluesky the other day.

00:40:21.38

Krispy

Yep.

00:40:23.29

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And some people can draw a horse, a very believable horse out of their mind. Beautiful. Well done, you know, but it's still it's still stylized.

00:40:31.78

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:40:32.25

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And if you were to draw from a photo and make a photographic representation of a horse, it's going to be different than, you know.

00:40:32.78

Miranda

Mm-hmm.

00:40:40.47

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And so when I was in these classes and that all I could draw was what I could see. And it's, you know, this is a little bit of a boast, but I was very good at life drawing.

00:40:48.98

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:40:49.12

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And I think that's an asset. The fact that I couldn't see anything else except for what and people would say how do you do that and I'm like, I can't explain this to you but fun fact my partner is also uh also has aphantasia and he was the only person in that class I considered a rival so

00:40:59.20

Krispy

Yeah. Yes.

00:41:09.36

Krispy

See, I have to look into that more because I don't, I don't understand it because I don't think I see pictures, but I'm like, what does it look like if you do see a picture? So, you know, I'm like on the fence.

00:41:19.56

Krispy

I'm like, I can't see pictures, but what is it?

00:41:22.99

Varethane

Let's find that chart of the apple that was going around a while ago.

00:41:23.09

Sarah/AdorkaStock

My friend.

00:41:26.64

Varethane

Cause that I actually also have aphantasia and it was that graphic specifically that made me realize it.

00:41:31.65

Krispy

Okay, I mean I need to look at it because I'm just like, I can't see pictures in my head, but does, is that true?

00:41:38.17

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Okay, do you dream? do you dream in picture? Like, do you dream?

00:41:40.67

Krispy

I do.

00:41:41.36

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Okay, so people who I know who can have who have had pictures, especially the ones that are on the way other end of the spectrum, their internal visualization is as clear as a dream visualization.

00:41:54.30

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Like, it is to them, it is as clear.

00:41:55.28

Krispy

oh

00:41:58.81

Sarah/AdorkaStock

as a dream visualization.

00:41:59.01

Krispy

That's crazy.

00:42:00.61

Sarah/AdorkaStock

That's what I'm saying.

00:42:01.01

Krispy

Oh my gosh.

00:42:01.21

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I'm like, there's no way that this is a small percentage of people because I know a lot of people who can close their eyes. I could draw you an apple, right? If you hand me a piece of paper, I could draw an apple for you. I conceptually understand what an apple looks like.

00:42:14.78

Sarah/AdorkaStock

If you handed me a piece of clay, I could make an apple out of clay. But when I close my eyes, it is black. I am thinking of the idea of an apple, but I cannot see it in my head.

00:42:22.40

Krispy

Yeah.

00:42:27.32

Krispy

Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay, this is helping. I'm glad that it is.

00:42:31.86

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Is it helping or is it sending you down the rabbit hole?

00:42:32.20

Varethane

Yeah, I think because it's funny.

00:42:33.45

Krispy

Yeah.

00:42:35.85

Varethane

I feel like I can picture things like when I'm at that stage of thinking about a concept of an apple, I'm like, oh, it like, okay, I can kind of, I can sort of put together like a visual for myself internally.

00:42:45.19

00:42:50.76

Varethane

But it's completely gone if I close my eyes. And like the whole time I'm not actually seeing it.

00:42:53.01

Krispy

yeah

00:42:55.88

Varethane

So when people were like, no, like you can actually see it like as if you're viewing it with your with your actual eyeballs. I was like, no, that's crazy. You're lying to me.

00:43:03.90

Krispy

Same. I'm just like, liars.

00:43:05.54

Miranda

Yeah.

00:43:06.38

Krispy

Bunch of liars. Yeah.

00:43:08.15

Sarah/AdorkaStock

My husband.

00:43:08.12

Miranda

Well, this makes me wonder if I also aphantasia. I can think of what I want, but obviously I don't see a picture. Anyway, so a subtitle of this episode is Do You Have Aphantasia?

00:43:22.69

Miranda

And how do you know?

00:43:23.68

Varethane

Realizing some things about ourselves. but

00:43:25.42

Miranda

Results will surprise you.

00:43:28.69

Sarah/AdorkaStock

It makes my partner very upset because every time we talk about it, he's like, wait, no, hold on. Okay, let's take step back.

00:43:36.84

Krispy

Yes. Oh my God.

00:43:38.04

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And it's very it is if I would I would agree that this makes absolutely no sense if I didn't have friends who absolutely insist that their internal visualization is as good or better than actually seeing

00:43:44.82

Krispy

Yeah.

00:43:49.48

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And on top of that, I have friends who can visualize so well that they can overlay their imaginative images onto their own reality, which in my case, I would think I was losing my goddamn mind.

00:43:58.23

Krispy

oh my god

00:44:01.13

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So like, if I could see something, the way that I check if I'm dreaming is to visualize a flower growing out of my pinched fingers.

00:44:01.22

Krispy

yeah

00:44:01.19

Miranda

Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:02.54

Krispy

Yeah.

00:44:10.09

Sarah/AdorkaStock

If I could do that while awake, I would have no concept of when I was or was not conscious. Yeah.

00:44:16.24

Miranda

yeah

00:44:16.71

Krispy

I would be like, magic is real. Oh my God.

00:44:23.62

Krispy

Well, okay. That's important though. I feel like, this is why references exist to help, you know, get away from like the bias that you have with your mind horses and whatnot. And to help, you know, get to those intricacies that make these things like Thane talking about the bicycle together and whatnot. And, you know, it does help with like how we visualize and how we kind of navigate the world. So, you know, I'm going to go to our last question of the episode, which is still a pretty big one.

00:44:59.77

Krispy

This one's going to be your advice for someone who's not great at drawing anatomy and wants to use something like AdorkaStock to get better. So Sarah, what would, what would you tell these folks that are like, hi, I kind of, I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I want to improve. Like, where do I start? How do I start?

00:45:19.06

Krispy

What would be your advice?

00:45:21.17

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So one of the things that I absolutely love, there's a book called Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, and I'm not going to remember the author's name, but there's been many editions of it now. It's a book that's been around for a really long time.

00:45:34.82

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And when I first read this book, I had some of that same disconnect with some of the exercises, because she talks very similarly about drawing what you see, and drawing what's actually there and not what you think you see.

00:45:49.86

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:45:49.86

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But the exercises in that book, I find, are really pretty-it's a really pretty good place to start. It's a lot of the fundamentals that you would get from like an introductory drawing class. So it's learning how to recognize like hand bias. Hand bias is when you're drawing something and you're sort of slanting it a bit.

00:46:07.78

Sarah/AdorkaStock

because of the side that you're drawing on. It's really common when you start illustrating, you'll see like little kid art always kind of like seems to sort of shift to one side and they get better as they start to recognize that.

00:46:21.03

Sarah/AdorkaStock

That's why people do mirroring, right? So like if you draw a face, you flip it up.

00:46:22.99

Krispy

Yeah.

00:46:24.39

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Most people who are listening to this are probably going to be digital artists. So, you know, you flip it, you flip the canvas horizontal, you're looking for your hand bias. That's what you're looking for. So it the exercises in this book will kind of walk you through the basics of like how to draw things.

00:46:32.65

Krispy

yeah

00:46:39.65

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And, you know, one of them, for example, is like if you're working from a reference, you just flip the reference upside down. And that's one way to get your mind to stop seeing you know, a face and it just starts seeing the shapes and the spacing, things like that.

00:46:53.06

Krispy

Oh.

00:46:53.12

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So there's all kinds of exercises like that. It's a really fun book. I really enjoyed it when I read it. And it's been like I said, it's been around for a long time, which tells you that it's a useful thing.

00:47:04.55

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But yeah, it honestly, you know, it's like that 10,000 hours to so to learn a skill or whatever, you know, most of learning how to draw is doing it a lot, but it's not just mindlessly drawing, right?

00:47:09.56

Krispy

Yes.

00:47:15.98

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You have to do it with intent.

00:47:17.79

Krispy

yes

00:47:17.91

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So people will say, oh, I've been drawing for five years and I haven't seen any improvement. And, you know, they're wrong. There probably has been improvement. But if you want to see true growth, you have to you have to be studying,

00:47:30.12

Sarah/AdorkaStock

The way to learn is to actively participate in the thing.

00:47:30.44

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:47:34.43

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I could go swimming every day and not get any better.

00:47:37.64

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:47:37.67

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But if I go swimming with intent and I'm practicing specific skills and I'm, you know, trying to strengthen the amount of time I can hold my breath and things like that, I don't know how to swim. Don't listen to me.

00:47:48.34

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But if I'm building muscle for the, you know, goal of learning to swim better, faster, stronger, harder. So that's what I'm saying is that you have to, you have to, you know, every month or week or whatever, pick a thing.

00:47:55.84

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:48:02.17

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I want to get better at gesture, which a lot of people starting out are like, what is gesture? So that's a question you should research.

00:48:08.80

Krispy

Yeah. Yeah.

00:48:09.64

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You know, and it's just, if you want to get better at drawing, don't let go of that hunger, keep trying to learn. And that's what I lost. Do you know what I'm saying? I lost that desire to continue the study of art.

00:48:25.57

Krispy

Yeah.

00:48:29.13

Krispy

You know, it's a huge... that hunger. Oh my goodness. We have a little community discord for Screen Tones because we're very resource driven.

00:48:39.70

Krispy

So we have like a workshop channel where folks can talk about either writing or art. And a lot of people jump into art being like, you know, does this look weird? This is the feedback on this X, Y, Z And I will see like younger folks being like, I don't want my art to be ugly, but I want to get better. And I'm such a perfectionist with this. And I'm just like,

00:49:02.11

Krispy

Studies are not... I'm sad about the social media brain rot that folks feel like they have to post everything and their entire journey online because they're like, well, I need it to be recognized or anything like that. And I think that's part of an issue of like people wanting to also improve too. But like there also needs to be, like you were saying, Sarah, like that intent to want to study and to get into the well I'm going to say it, but not as fun and rewarding, I guess, parts like as the instant gratification you'd get from drawing some Floribobelibuses.

00:49:36.30

Krispy

And, you know, I think it's just important to have that if you want to go from A to Z kind of thing.

00:49:45.39

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You got to be willing to let it get messy.

00:49:47.28

Krispy

Yes, make mistakes.

00:49:50.97

Miranda

Okay, Miss Frizzle.

00:49:52.32

Krispy

Yeah. All right, Miranda, you tell us so your advice.

00:49:56.23

Miranda

yeah

00:49:56.64

Krispy

What's the advice that you'd like to give to folks?

00:50:02.77

Miranda

Um, like, I, so I get what Sarah has said about like, just not wanting to like reaching a point and being like, yeah, I think I'm good here. And then moving on.

00:50:14.35

Miranda

I know for me, like, I don't aspire to be able to draw photorealistic artwork. I admire it and I love it. But I just know I don't have it in me to... At least at this point, maybe I'll like... Maybe it'll change, but like I don't have it in me to

00:50:35.81

Miranda

get to that level and work to that. Like I want to draw webcomics and my webcomics are not going to look like photographs and that's okay because it's not supposed to.

00:50:46.88

Miranda

And I'm happy with that. But I do like to have my characters look like they are moving the right way. And to do that, I have to have anatomy.

00:50:54.42

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:50:56.87

Miranda

So just, finding poses and I get stuck on a lot on like, OK, I need this pose for my comic. My character is doing this. I need a specific pose.

00:51:09.74

Miranda

Finding examples of that pose and seeing how the muscles are moving, what is overlapping because foreshortening is ridiculously hard and I hate it, but I have to do it.

00:51:21.01

Miranda

And so just seeing like, like I, so I'm drawing my character picking a lock and just like face, you're facing the back. And so I'm drawing her and I'm like, I don't think you would see the hands because she's right in front of it.

00:51:35.51

Miranda

But it looks weird because she doesn't have like, you don't see her arms at all.

00:51:40.93

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:51:42.31

Miranda

And so I had to like go take a picture of myself in the pose I'm doing to prove to myself that yes, you don't see the hands. This is okay. So just seeing the pose and getting that like, even if it's just verification of like, okay, what I'm thinking and what I'm drawing is in fact correct, even if it looks weird. Like sometimes it just looks off until you see it in a physical person or in a picture.

00:52:16.58

Miranda

And that's another good way to use references. So that's one way I use them.

00:52:26.46

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I feel like I would be remiss if I didn't drop in here and mention that if you're my patron, you get anytime requests.

00:52:32.83

Krispy

Oh, heck yes.

00:52:33.01

Miranda

Oh,

00:52:33.73

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So it's perfect for the, can you just take a picture of yourself from the back, but you've got your hands on a doorknob? I can do that. Right.

00:52:41.51

Miranda

Okay.

00:52:41.86

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You know, I'll be right back.

00:52:43.45

Miranda

Noted.

00:52:44.10

Sarah/AdorkaStock

Let me just, you know, yeah.

00:52:44.54

Varethane

The dream.

00:52:46.10

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So I just throwing that out there.

00:52:48.36

Krispy

I'm going

00:52:48.87

Miranda

Noted. Okay. Well, yeah. See you on see you on Patreon.

00:52:56.51

Krispy

go to put Sarah on call.

00:52:58.11

Miranda

Yeah. But the other thing that I recognize helps me so much, but I am bad at doing it and like doing it a lot. And I love the Screen Tones workshops because they kind of force like they reminded me like, oh, I should work on this.

00:53:15.47

Miranda

is just doing like through Adorka sketch or whatever, like an actual live drawing class, you can get to that and just drawing something that you're not trying to get specific, like not for a specific purpose, drawing just for the sake of practicing.

00:53:30.08

Krispy

Yes. Mm-hmm.

00:53:31.11

Miranda

and doing the contours and gestures and like focusing on different aspects of the pose, whether it's like you're just drawing the outline or you're focusing on where the blank space is between the arms and the legs, or just getting the overall gesture. like Even if I'm looking at a pose and trying to replicate it, sometimes it just doesn't look right until I'm like, okay, step back.

00:53:55.20

Miranda

What is like the overall movement of this pose?

00:53:59.99

Miranda

Getting that and I feel like you can stylize and emphasize it more when you're drawing in my case web comics because it doesn't have to look realistic so you can if you know the gesture you can emphasize it more and then still have a realistic enough looking thing but it looks stylized looks just bigger

00:54:25.18

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:54:25.86

Miranda

ah the word like

00:54:26.06

Krispy

yeah

00:54:27.24

Miranda

on the picture and just more cartoony like because you understand like the overall flow of the pose and that's something that I think you have to practice to be able to do more effectively and just doing it over and over and like starting small and just working your way up and doing the different time frames. 15 seconds is not enough time!

00:54:56.40

Krispy

It's good though.

00:54:56.74

Miranda

But also if you do 15 seconds and then you get to the minute and you're like, I have forever.

00:55:03.02

Miranda

Like it's, it's wild.

00:55:04.09

Krispy

Yep.

00:55:05.27

Miranda

And it's just so cool to see. And I did some 15, like I did one of the sessions a while, like fairly recently. And they looked so much better than like but from last year.

00:55:18.32

Krispy

who

00:55:18.92

Miranda

and I was like, Oh, I've actually improved at getting these faster. Like, yeah. So, but again, like you have to actually practice. It's not like if you're sitting down to draw a webcomic, you're not sitting down to practice that.

00:55:35.85

Miranda

And the practice is what helps you kind of retain that to move forward.

00:55:36.31

Krispy

Yes.

00:55:42.06

Miranda

So...

00:55:43.87

Varethane

That actually was what I was gonna mention for my own thing, just that like, for my for my own thing just that like practice, practice, practice. The building that mental library is only going to happen with repetition.

00:56:00.13

Varethane

And so doing life drawings, whether it's in person, whether it's using something like that, like the life drawing session builder on the AdorkaStock site, a lot of them will do a flow which starts with really short poses,

00:56:16.21

Varethane

like 15 or 30 seconds, and then we'll do like, you know, five or 10 of those and then move on to like one minute, and then move on to two minute and then move on to five minute. And doing the really, really short ones, like you're not going to be making like high art out of these.

00:56:31.86

Varethane

But that's not the point. Like the point isn't to make like a beautiful picture. It's just like, how quickly can you capture like the essence of this pose, this little, you know, somebody running or somebody lifting something or kneeling on the floor, like how few lines can you use to capture that and still retain that?

00:56:41.00

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:56:41.42

Miranda

Mm-hmm.

00:56:50.82

Varethane

Like, oh, I can tell what they're doing. What are, how are they moving? Where's their weight being held? Is there momentum? Like little things about the pose. and getting practice at seeing those.

00:57:02.85

Varethane

And the more you do it, the quicker it'll be the next time. And as you're starting out a picture, like you'll be like, oh, I, you know, I've drawn like, you know, 50 tiny little drawings of people running.

00:57:14.97

Varethane

And now I'm significantly faster at drawing somebody, you know, running because I kind of understand like, okay, here's where the arms and legs go and like what's going on with their center of gravity.

00:57:20.30

Miranda

Thank you.

00:57:22.61

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:57:25.17

Varethane

And honestly, I would I would recommend like even aside from that, like not even necessarily just pictures of people, but just draw like studies of things like around you.

00:57:39.86

Varethane

Just set aside like a little like, you know, maybe five minutes or less like a day. It doesn't have to be intense, but like, you know, if there's like a funny lamp across the room from you. Or like, maybe there's an interesting candlestick or like a tree, just the view outside your own window. Like just, just do little, little studies. They don't have to be anything much, but it's like, cause a comic is not just people. You also have like things in the setting. And just every time you draw something from observation, you're getting more practice at having your hand be connected to what your eyes are seeing.

00:58:15.06

Varethane

Like, and getting used to that sort of, okay, so that's how this angle, how this plane is angled or whatever. I'm going to draw that. And like, here's how that curve goes.

00:58:25.91

Varethane

Just getting, just practice. Yeah.

00:58:29.28

Sarah/AdorkaStock

If I was going to start drawing again, that's where I would start. I would just start drawing things in the house, things in the yard.

00:58:35.37

Krispy

Yeah.

00:58:36.15

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You know, trees are great because trees have gesture and not everybody, i guess not everybody has trees. There's my, but you know, that's a, you can sit at the bus stop and sketch people on the street and you know there's just, it's really just, yeah, like you said, getting that that brain, eye, hand connection flowing.

00:58:44.56

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:58:58.33

Sarah/AdorkaStock

And really having someone and having a community of people to kind of give you feedback on that journey is good.

00:59:05.49

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But criticism at that point is, I don't think, as valuable as just continuing to sort of look at it yourself.

00:59:12.98

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:59:15.25

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You know what a lamp looks like. So if you draw a lamp and you say, well, that's 50% of the way there, you know, you kind of know what you're going towards. So, yeah.

00:59:24.98

Varethane

Yeah. And it's funny because that thing about like critique, like the goal of it isn't really to make something to show off.

00:59:26.12

Miranda

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:59:31.49

Varethane

Like it's much more kind of internal. And I guess maybe that's why so many people overlook this as a practice because it doesn't really result in something that's going to go viral on social media unless you combine it with something really funny like the mind horse or something like that.

00:59:45.61

Varethane

But it's a that's not the goal. Like that's not really the point.

00:59:50.98

Krispy

Yeah and I do see a lot of folks struggle with that because they're like well it's boring and I'm like well spoiler alert.

01:00:02.16

Varethane

yeah

01:00:02.54

Miranda

Bye.

01:00:03.68

Krispy

The journey isn't exactly entertainment all the way. and there are going to be weird things that you're going to have to look up. Another thing, you know, a nice little companion to the mind horse is the cars.

01:00:15.81

Krispy

When I could tell people don't look up cars and they're like, well, if it's a box with like four wheels. You know, it's just yeah looking up those references will make you... make you appreciate a lot of the shapes that go into the things that you see every day that you think you know kind of thing.

01:00:34.92

Krispy

And it's just why they're so integral because like everybody was saying that you're going to build that mental library and it's going to help you with drawing, you know, webcomics, as far as like, you know, you're going drawing this character like 50,000 times.

01:00:51.05

Krispy

So when you have that mental library of knowing how, you know, someone is posed in this position or you've drawn a lot of people running like Thane was saying, or swimming, you know, It cascades.

01:01:05.30

Krispy

It cascades. That skill set cascades to the way that you're kind of going to be tackling these gestures, these shapes. And it helps improve in these interesting ways.

01:01:19.98

Sarah/AdorkaStock

If you drape different types of fabric over objects and you shine a light on them, what you'll learn from that study can inform so much more later, right?

01:01:34.06

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So like if you take silk and drape it over a pile of objects and draw that and then you take a linen and you drape it over and then you take...

01:01:34.58

Krispy

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

01:01:41.16

Sarah/AdorkaStock

tin foil and you crunch it over the objects. What you'll get out of that is, you know, like a visual library is what people call it. For me, it's more like vibes.

01:01:53.66

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But like you'll get information that that will inform the next time you draw a t-shirt or the next time you draw a dress crumpled up on the floor or the next time you draw, you know, any of those.

01:02:04.63

Sarah/AdorkaStock

The visual material understanding of how things work react in physical space. That's the kind of stuff that you will only learn with intentional study.

01:02:16.55

Sarah/AdorkaStock

You have to observe. i say you will only, but I mean, you know, we've got artists out here like, you know, the late Kim Jong-ji who could just have a mural in his head that he then just drew, you know, directly from the pen onto the wall, right? So there's a spectrum here.

01:02:32.26

Sarah/AdorkaStock

But I feel like for the most part, are you're only going to be able to create what you have seen.

01:02:39.43

Krispy

Yeah.

01:02:39.41

Sarah/AdorkaStock

So you the intentionality is really important.

01:02:42.33

Krispy

Yeah. And it definitely feeds. Everything feeds back into like your nice little system, your brain, your mental libraries, just slowly getting fed how things interact as far as anatomy, as far as objects, as far as texture and whatnot.

01:02:57.57

Krispy

This stuff is important because it feeds into how you tackle different aspects. And I can tell when people have done studies of like a character drawing a suit with the way that they draw the folds. I'm just like, okay, I've seen, I know that this person has looked up references because that's how it should be fold as opposed to like, you know, I think it's, it was a typical thing. you little learning in school and everything like when they were showing like when people would draw jeans and stuff like that and being like well denim is very thick uh and people draw like leggings and it's just interesting like this stuff feeds itself so references like AdorkaStock like you know ruby's fat photo ref there's a lot in there. I know the community is small but there is a lot of stuff and we're going to be dropping

01:03:49.03

Krispy

a nice little resource in the links in the description in this video. We've compiled an entire list of different places to learn anatomy from and folks can check that out. It just, there's a huge list.

01:04:03.97

Krispy

It'll take me a little while to just name it all, but definitely check that out. If you're someone that's just, you know, ready to ready to learn.

01:04:16.15

Miranda

Life-changing episode today.

01:04:17.98

Krispy

It was. and absolutely was. I'm just going to be thinking about aphantasia a lot moving forward. But with that, that has been a chicken Caesar salad wrap.

01:04:32.06

Krispy

I want to thank Sarah so much for coming on to this episode, talking about references with us on Screen Tones. I've been your host, Krispy. You can find my work at ghostjunkstickness.com and lunarblight.com.

01:04:46.51

Sarah/AdorkaStock

I am Sarah Forde, a.k.a. AdorkaStock. You can find all of my links on AdorkaStock.com/hub. That will give you basically everything. And I will just also mention that I am an artist. And I make very fancy hair bows, which you can see on adorkabows.com.

01:05:04.26

Miranda

I am very curious, so I will be looking that up too. I'm Miranda, and you can find my work at mirandacakes.art.

01:05:15.70

Varethane

And I'm Varethane, and you can find my work at chirault.sevensmith.net and at wychwoodcomic.com.

01:05:24.26

Krispy

Alright, everybody. Time to draw a mind horse. Let's go!

01:05:28.95

Varethane

I'm going to draw a mind car.

01:05:31.53

Miranda

Yeah, I feel like I need to do a car or a bicycle because I feel like I would fail at that miserably.

01:05:36.36

Varethane

The bicycle's too hard, too hard for me. I can't.

01:05:38.57

Miranda

yeah

01:05:38.98

Varethane

I'm not going to do that one.

01:05:39.39

Krispy

There's way too many poles on that.

01:05:42.26

Varethane

Oh, no. So many little...