00:00:25.50

Krispy

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about the current state of selling comics in person. I'm Krispy, my pronouns are she, they, and I make the webcomics Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight.

00:00:44.71

Claire

I am Claire, also known as Clam. My pronouns are she, her. I make the webcomic Phantomarine.

00:00:50.74

Star

And I'm Star, my pronouns are she, her, and I make the comic Cast Off

00:00:56.50

Krispy

So we're recording this in 2026. We've had a bunch of convention experience, all three of us here. And there's a lot of things that are shifting in the convention space. The wisdom has kind of shifted from what we're kind of giving the advice to others. And we've got a lot of adapting to do. So maybe we've taken some things for granted, things that we missed from the past or things got a little bit better over the years, perhaps. Let's kind of just talk about the direction. Let's see what happened to conventions, because boy, oh boy, have those expectations absolutely changed.

00:01:38.17

Krispy

I think the first question I want to ask everybody here, because we all have convention experience, I want to ask when's the first time that you actually tabled? Like, you know, when's your experience for conventions? So we can kind of plot a timeline for this. So tell me, tell me, C lumbo.

00:01:56.06

Claire

Clumbo will tell you all. There's much less to tell with Clumbo because Clumbo is a baby. I tabled for the first time in 2019. So I got in right before everything exploded. But I'm very glad that I got at least one tabling experience.

00:02:16.28

Claire

Because I had been to conventions for years before then, but always in the sense of like anime cons or comic cons, like going as an attendee, walking through the artist alley, but never actually selling anything because there was a big gap where I was just like, I'm not really drawing anything or at least I'm not drawing anything that I would want to sell or that's mine or that's a comic. But then comic happened. We have a convention here in Vancouver called VanCaf. And it's kind of a sister con to TCAF in Toronto, at least in vibes, much smaller

00:02:54.78

Claire

But it's always been super duper sweet and cool and very indie focused. And I got in in 2019 and I was like, what do I do? Researching table designs and all sorts of do this, don't do this, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't have a banner or anything. I just came in. I was like, here's my stuff.

00:03:16.02

Claire

But I remember, really good first positive experience. Somebody came into the convention hall within like two minutes of opening time, beelined it to my table as if drawn by the universe itself and was just like, like pointed at my stuff and they're like, I like this.

00:03:34.65

Claire

This calls to me. I'm going to buy everything. And I'm like, is this what this is like?

00:03:41.82

Claire

Oh my goodness. And that was my first convention purchaser. And I think I connected with them online later and they were like, oh yeah, I found your stuff there. I'm like, yeah, you're the first person to talk to me. And the whole time was really, really cool. And I got to speak to a lot of people. I remember the feeling was very positive compared to what it has become. But basically, like you had kids coming up and parents asking questions and people actually looking at the book and behaving kind of normal, I guess. And I feel like I guess we'll get into it later. But so much of that sort of behavior has changed where people are more cautious. They're like, can I actually touch this? Can I read this?

00:04:26.96

Claire

How can I read this? Is it free? And I'm, it's strange. Like it felt more organic back then. and then the Fire Nation attacked and everything changed.

00:04:36.66

Krispy

yeah that dang fire nation i'm so tired of them

00:04:44.06

Krispy

No, it is interesting. It is absolutely interesting. We're going to get into the weeds, the thick of things for that. But Star, here we go. I'm after you. When's your first time that you did the table machine thing? And tell us all about it.

00:04:57.98

Star

So my experience is both similar and very different to clams. So my very first time tabling was in 2008

00:05:12.35

Krispy

A good time.

00:05:13.24

Star

I was still in high school. I was a little bitty baby. I was like 16 years old, I think. And I actually wasn't selling art necessarily. I think I was doing commissions because my table partner who I was sharing the table with was doing commissions. And I was like, I feel like I should also be doing this. But I spent months making like these little bitty clay figurines.

00:05:38.68

Krispy

oh my gosh

00:05:38.68

Star

They were like, what if the characters from Ouran High School Host Club were snowmen, basically, is kind of what they looked like.

00:05:46.62

Claire

Oh my god.

00:05:47.48

Krispy

I hope you have pictures of this, please.

00:05:47.26

Star

I used to on like my old, old Facebook that got hacked and shut down.

00:05:55.16

Krispy

Oh, okay. I'll imagine it.

00:05:56.18

Star

Just imagine it in your mind's eye. I'll draw you a You know what? There may be one surviving one somewhere in this house. I have to go find that old scrapbook, but I bet I might. This is off topic. Anyway, so I made a bunch of those and I sold a modest amount, I think.

00:06:19.74

Star

Nothing special. But then a couple of years pass, I graduated high school. And then in 2012, while I was in college, same convention, I actually did my first booth and I was selling mostly prints that I just drew in the weeks leading up to the con because the con was during winter vacation and I was home from college.

00:06:41.46

Star

And I actually had there the first volume of my first webcomic.

00:06:47.90

Krispy

Oh my gosh.

00:06:48.31

Star

that I had just printed when Kickstarter was like less than two years old, I think. I had done a little print project. I printed 50 copies of the book. I think the Kickstarter raised like $800. And I was so excited. I think I sold one over the entire weekend.

00:07:06.53

Krispy

That's the vibe.

00:07:07.26

Star

Ain't it just, ain't it just. And then I barely broke even at that con, mostly from print sales.

00:07:19.53

Star

Because it was prints and my one little little dinky book. I literally made my print displays out of like ah one of those tri-fold like science fair boards and I cut it in half and just taped my prints to it and put one on each side of my table.

00:07:28.73

Krispy

Oh my gosh.

00:07:33.97

Claire

Oh, bless.

00:07:34.07

Krispy

That's awesome. Oh my god, that's awesome.

00:07:37.69

Star

Little baby star, baby entrepreneur.

00:07:39.44

Krispy

Oh my gosh.

00:07:41.98

Star

And then I didn't do it again for a long, long time. And then in 2019, when I moved back from teaching in Japan, I was like, I'm going to do conventions as one of my main sources of income. And I did like three conventions and then the country shut down.

00:08:02.44

Krispy

Oh, oh no, that's ah okay.

00:08:04.98

Star

Yeah, so we had to pivot hard and fast because I didn't have another job at the time.

00:08:12.41

Krispy

No, man, that Fire Nation really came swift.

00:08:15.58

Star

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I pivoted very quickly to online sales, which honestly worked out pretty well. But yeah, and so then once conventions started happening again, I was like easing myself back into it. And nowadays I would do more conventions, but they make me so tired.

00:08:32.68

Star

I'm so tired.

00:08:33.24

Star

I have the mental fortitude for like three conventions a year.

00:08:36.70

Krispy

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Shaking your hand there. They're exhausting. They're so exhausting.

00:08:42.20

Star

It would be so much easier if I could drive because getting on a plane means you have to worry about weight limits and all this other bullshit. And like, you know, there's occasionally cons in Texas I'll go to, but most of the big cons are like in Chicago, in Seattle, and you have to be on like a four hour flight to get there.

00:09:00.96

Star

And I'm just like, what if I died, actually?

00:09:03.99

Star

What if I just died? Because my problem now is, you know, I've got these books and the books account for most of my sales and the books are f***ing heavy and I have to get them onto a plane.

00:09:15.27

Star

What the f***?

00:09:17.05

Krispy

yeah yeah no I absolutely get that absolutely

00:09:22.62

Star

I will ramble about this more, but Krispy, you should also tell your experience.

00:09:26.65

Krispy

My lore. So Krispo's lore. We started tabling in 2015 and we did that by chance. I think it was my nan who was like looking at the paper and it was like what's a TCAF And we're like, I don't know.

00:09:27.51

Star

Krispo.

00:09:44.74

Krispy

We'll check that out. And that was actually one of our first conventions that we got into. I think Ghost Junk Sickness was about a year and a half old around that time.

00:09:56.48

Krispy

And we did this crazy thing in which every time we finished a volume, we would just absolutely print it like crazy people. And it was printed with Lulu during that old time, which feels, yeah, I know.

00:10:08.05

Star

Oh my god, the ancient lore!

00:10:11.51

Krispy

The ancient lore. And it was a big size book. But yeah, we we set up shop, TCAF. We were right across from Hiveworks that didn't recognize us.

00:10:22.59

Krispy

Rest in peace.

00:10:24.02

Star

what

00:10:25.51

Claire

I didn't know that.

00:10:26.42

Krispy

Oh yeah, it was great.

00:10:27.07

Claire

Oh my.

00:10:28.18

Krispy

And we actually, yeah, we got like a little cork board. I think we got like plate stands to set our books up. It was a cute little modest display.

00:10:38.70

Krispy

And yeah, it was very fun. For our first convention ever of all time, tabling. I had such a blast.

00:10:48.89

Krispy

There were so many people that just came up and they were like, that's a comic. wow what the heck that's great blah blah blah blah blah let's talk about the comic picking up the books and people were just so heckin interested all the time it was bizarre it was so so strange. You know it's sad that I'm saying it was bizarre now because I miss that. I miss how much people were so intense about engaging with indie comics.

00:11:19.86

Krispy

And yeah, they were, they were all over it. I think we did okay. I think we definitely broke even. We definitely made table back and all that. And it encouraged us to keep going. Again, it was our first convention at TCAF. I love it. The Toronto Comics Art Festival. In Toronto Canada yeah awesome awesome indie convention it's just comics all the way down and yeah definitely one of my favorites and since then we've been going every now and then that we can because you have to apply every other year for it. But yeah it it was a great first convention that we went to and

00:12:04.15

Krispy

My, how has it changed now? But let us get into those weeds right now, because guess what? My next question is, what the heck changed? What changed? Clam, Clam, help me. What changed?

00:12:20.22

Claire

No one has money anymore.

00:12:22.33

Krispy

Oh, that's true. That's a big part.

00:12:25.59

Claire

No one has money. And if you have two money instead of 10 money, you're going to spend money more carefully. It's not just that simple, but there is this kind of sense that I know we've talked about on the side, which leads to episodes like this where we're all just kind of like...

00:12:41.54

Claire

Nobody's coming in and just pointing at your stuff and being like, that looks cool. I'm going to get it.

00:12:47.58

Claire

They're looking at it and being like, is it worth it? Is this an investment that I can benefit from? blah, blah, blah, blah. Which leads to this...

00:12:59.40

Claire

over-reliance on, i guess, going to a convention and you're not necessarily looking for new things. You're looking for familiar things. Things that are well known to you, whether it's fan art or fan comics of things that you already know about, or even comics about things that are easily understood. Like, this is my vampire comic. It's called Vampire Comic.

00:13:25.01

Claire

I know what that's about. That's very, very simple. And I think when I tabled that first time, I got that first taste and only taste of kind of the sense of like people are looking at my work, they might not fully understand it, but they're asking questions. They're interested. They're willing to kind of cold buy something a little bit more quickly.

00:13:48.54

Claire

which is lovely. And it's nice to have somebody just be like, I'm just gonna check this out because I trust it. It looks cool. And nowadays I feel like there's far more like people looking at it, putting it down, coming back around, looking at it again.

00:14:01.98

Claire

coming back around and then maybe getting it or getting something smaller or something on your table where like they've come back to your table three times and they're like, I feel bad for this person.

00:14:12.66

Claire

I'm just going to get this cat sticker because I like cats. And it's kind of tough when you've got original stuff that's a little bit harder to pitch.

00:14:24.01

Claire

And I'm very much in that category. Like, once you get it, you get it. And other people pitch it better than I do every single time. But I do feel that at a con, there is more of that sense of very discretionary spending right now.

00:14:39.18

Claire

But also like mentally, people are tired.

00:14:42.50

Claire

It's not just a money problem. It's a brain problem. It's a soul problem. And I feel it too. When we we were at TCAF a couple weeks ago, I actually had to force myself to go around, get up to these tables, look at them, talk to people.

00:14:59.12

Claire

And that's not easy sometimes when you're really tired and you're overwhelmed and life is on fire. So you kind of have to shift actively into this mindset of these people are making really cool stuff.

00:15:12.29

Claire

I want to know more about it. And everybody here wants to tell me about it.

00:15:17.25

Claire

Yeah, I miss that sense of like conversation and people being excited and not just sharing that one $20 bill around the artist alley. I didn't get a huge, I guess, first barrage of good feelings because I was only at one con, but I even got enough where I'm like, something is different now.

00:15:42.83

Claire

People are careful and that's kind of sad.

00:15:46.78

Krispy

Mhmm. And especially when there's that expectation going into certain conventions, because like, they'll have, you know, this is a fan convention. They have birthday events for characters that I just figured that out.

00:16:03.20

Krispy

Yeah, yeah.

00:16:03.17

Star

Oh, yeah.

00:16:03.38

Claire

what

00:16:05.52

Krispy

Gotcha Universe. I learned all about that this weekend. My brain has expanded, I suppose. But yeah, they have birthday events for characters.

00:16:14.18

Krispy

They have, you know, then there's, you know, your indie conventions. You know, they have zine fests and stuff like that so like there's an expectation for certain conventions to have certain things but you know I think we're noticing a lot of things are just going right into this horrible melted goo where it starts to become this one weird thing and people are kind of expecting something else but before we go into that stop please tell me what has changed that you have noticed

00:16:49.85

Star

Yeah, I think mirroring pretty much everything, Clam said, the economy.

00:16:55.25

Krispy

Yes.

00:16:55.06

Star

The economy, am I right? So my thing is, you know, like, I haven't been vending as long maybe as some other folks, like actively, you know, I would do like one con and then wait four years and then I'd do it again and then I'd wait seven years.

00:17:10.33

Star

But in that time, in those time betweens, I was still actively attending conventions and shopping at these conventions. And the big thing I've noticed is there is a significantly higher bar of entry expected for people selling these days.

00:17:26.06

Star

Cause there is so much more competition, so much more people who tabling at conventions and the money they make from that is their entire career. Even for me, like I would not consider myself a full-time convention artist cause I don't do a full-time.

00:17:42.10

Star

I do a handful of conventions a year. Conventions and the profit I make from them is like one leg of my creature that is my sources of income.

00:17:52.54

Star

A line on the pyramid, if you will. But i if I stopped doing conventions I'm not destitute, right? But I know so many people.

00:18:04.97

Star

Conventions are the only thing they do. And the more we go on and the more the economy and the job market sucks, the more people are going to be like, they're trying to get into it because they see it as a way they can make money. It's like, well, I can draw.

00:18:19.72

Star

I can draw fan art. I can get into these conventions. And the bar of entry just keeps getting higher and higher and higher. And there's fewer and fewer tables because there's more and more competition every single year. You know, when I first started doing this, I was getting into probably... 70 to 80% of the conventions I applied for. Now it's like 30%.

00:18:42.11

Krispy

Wow. Wow. That's crazy. Oh my gosh.

00:18:47.42

Star

Yeah. I mean, I literally just got waitlisted from a con here in Texas yesterday.

00:18:52.89

Star

and I'm like, that's a three hour drive. And I was going to go visit friends if I got into it, but I guess I can't go. And like MomoCon in Atlanta is one of my favorite conventions I do every single year. I got in as a guest a couple of years ago, like they paid for my flight and everything. And then this year I couldn't even get a normal table.

00:19:13.71

Star

It's ridiculous.

00:19:15.22

Krispy

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge part is definitely the expectations and the competition. It's so high. And it's so strange because, you know, you think that the opportunity would lead to, I don't know,

00:19:32.50

Krispy

Something accommodating this creativity this people coming in to make you know money off of their art and stuff like that because there's so many different resources to do that. Like you know how many people do the keychain thing and the standee thing and the print thing and blah blah blah what like there's so many more resources that people have access to making

00:20:01.43

Krispy

Like even enamel pins. Like remember like 10 years ago, that would be like, what?

00:20:13.30

Krispy

You make enamel pins? How did you do that? And people were like, whoo, so secretive about it. And, you know, still forever, I always share my resources to fellow artists. Do not gatekeep.

00:20:24.25

Krispy

But anyway, it's just it's crazy.

00:20:25.26

Claire

Don't it.

00:20:28.81

Krispy

People are getting into plushies and whatever. So like, yeah, the expectations are so, so high. And especially the amount and I have to use this word, the amount of content that people create.

00:20:43.90

Krispy

for these conventions. And I always think of like, you know, people who just draw fan art just because it will sell. They're not a fan of it.

00:20:50.32

Star

Yup. Yup.

00:20:51.61

Krispy

And you know, they're not a fan of it because you know what I'm thinking, I'm thinking back. 2016 or something. I think it was not 2014. Anyway, some convention my friend went to got me a print of Edward Elric and that guy had blue eyes.

00:21:06.49

Krispy

And I was like, Edward Elric does not have blue eyes. You have never seen, right?

00:21:09.12

Star

Who the fuck is that?

00:21:10.77

Krispy

Yeah.

00:21:10.91

Claire

Cancelled.

00:21:11.64

Krispy

Yeah, I was like.

00:21:11.80

Star

This is not my beautiful boy.

00:21:14.07

Krispy

that's not You've never seen this show, but you're doing this because you know it's going to get people to buy it. And somebody did. My friend bought it for me. And I was like, thanks for discount, Edward.

00:21:26.28

Star

Ali Baba Temu Edward Elric

00:21:28.28

Krispy

Yeah. But like, that's kind of the vibe is that people are like, okay, this is, I'm going in for profit, which absolutely valid it’s people's jobs.

00:21:38.46

Krispy

But I think that, it's hard to not sound like you have to go for the passion only. And then, you know, money is just the extra thing. Like, you know, no, like there's people who do this professionally, like, you know, they know what they're doing and stuff like that.

00:21:52.94

Krispy

And I think it's also fair to want people who don't know what they're doing to have that chance to have it. So like, you know, reflecting on you selling your little benums years ago in 2008, that's like a thing of the past.

00:22:09.84

Krispy

Like I think of old conventions, like my friends talk about having a button maker on the table and just going to town.

00:22:17.39

Star

Oh yeah, I did that for a couple of years, yeah. But the button maker was too heavy to bring on the plane, so I stopped doing it

00:22:22.49

Krispy

Yeah. It's a thing of the past now. like You wouldn't get a table being like, I'm the button guy. I'm going to make some buttons.

00:22:29.28

Star

Shrinky-dink charms.

00:22:30.64

Krispy

Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:31.67

Star

People used to make little keychains out of Shrinky-dinks.

00:22:34.65

Krispy

yeah Absolutely. And it's making me really reflect on what is required to get into these conventions now and how that skews both the creators and the attendees who go to them and buy stuff. So again, I'm going, I'm just going, but we're gonna ask another question. So we keep me on track because wooo. We're going to be talking more about comics because I forgot this is a comics podcast.

00:23:00.26

Krispy

So, you know.

00:23:00.71

Star

What's comics? I don't know what that is.

00:23:02.01

Krispy

yeah but So, Clam, come hither. I would like to scoot, scoot, scoot over here.

00:23:08.30

Claire

Scoot, scoot.

00:23:10.44

Krispy

What kinds of things are different now about selling comics in person when you first started? So you talked a little bit about that in the beginning of Clam. And you talked a little bit about engaging with people, but, what's the biggest thing that you're like, okay, that's the biggest difference selling comics then versus now.

00:23:29.57

Claire

I think, I mean, personally, it's the recognition from people online versus brand new people.

00:23:37.85

Claire

And I know for me, like, I didn't have any social media following in 2019. When I did my first con, I think I had maybe like 100 followers on Twitter or something, because Ithey're asking me for my social media accounts. I have to have something. So I was just like, here's, here's Twitter, I guess.

00:23:58.26

Claire

But nowadays it's been, oh my God, it's been seven years. But basically like a lot of what I noticed people doing with comics is kind of a middle ground between like, I don't know this comic at all versus this is my favorite comic ever is they'll find the things that they're familiar with.

00:24:16.99

Claire

And a lot of times, like people will come over and they'll be like, I recognize these characters. So I know there is a lot of legwork being done by stuff online. And a lot of people will feel more comfortable approaching you if they already know what your situation is. And they might not know your stuff 100%, but there's a familiarity. I still have people where like the things that I've posted of animations on like TikTok or whatever, where like I've dropped it and basically run, but people will find it and they'll be like, oh my God, you're the person from TikTok. And I'm like, I guess. Yeah.

00:24:59.15

Claire

I forgot about that. And they're like, yeah, there's this thing. I remember this dinosaur. I'm like, yeah, that's right. I put it there anyway. Cool. Hi.

00:25:07.61

Claire

and I feel like such a grandma, but it is something where I find that now having a bit of that online presence does help. But I also am sad that that's what it takes for people to approach and be like, oh, hi, like, I've heard of this comic rather than, I've never heard of this comic.

00:25:25.34

Claire

Let's talk about it.

00:25:26.78

Claire

Because I, the most recent ones that I've done, I think maybe in 2019, I tabled and then there was a big gap. And then I think it was 2023 or something when I tabled again, post Fire Nation or end of fire nation I don't know. The end of the hundred year war. But basically like even then i think there was still more of a sense of like oh cool like i want to know more about this this is something that is just looks interesting on its own and even from 2023 like that's just kind of dwindled into people looking at it, people kind of cocking their head and then going over to another table that has like Moomin and it's like, oh, I know Moomin.

00:26:08.80

Claire

It's like, bye.

00:26:11.06

Claire

Okay. But, again, like I was saying before, like, it's not a surprise. I feel that same sort of thing. Like I'm not going to TCAF to find a poster of my Blorbo from a professional show. I'm not doing that.

00:26:27.29

Claire

But I still see those posters and I'm like, oh, it's my Blorbo. I am not immune to the siren's call either. So I think it's a combination of like, people are more tired and they don't want to ask questions.

00:26:42.53

Claire

People are oversaturated. Again, like you said, with content. and just like if everybody is trying to make the best looking thing possible with like foil cover and plushes and charms. And I know a couple of people that basically made merch of their stuff before the comic even really got printed

00:27:03.98

Star

Oh my god!

00:27:04.38

Krispy

wow

00:27:07.04

Star

Okay, well, actually, I kind of did that.

00:27:11.38

Claire

I think you can do it a little bit. You can do it with paper products if it's stickers or whatever. But if you're like, here's my you know vinyl statue that I'm kickstarting now of my characters from this comic you've never read.

00:27:24.66

Claire

I'm just like, oh, sweetie, no, no, no, no no no no please. But there is that sense of like... It's like FOMO, we're like, this is how you do a convention table now.

00:27:35.86

Claire

And it's not just like, I printed this zine yesterday in my basement and I stapled it.

00:27:42.86

Claire

It's not that anymore. And I even feel bad, we've put together a couple of zines either as Screen Tones or as a group. And...

00:27:53.56

Claire

we do them professionally. We do the foil printing. We do the like color printing on good paper and we still call it a zine. But like in my mind that's not a zine. Zines used to be these little tiny ash can things.

00:28:07.06

Claire

They were meant to be small and cheap and personal. And I feel like even with stuff that we've done, like we've had to elevate things to be noticed.

00:28:18.55

Claire

And that pressure both financially and spiritually, you look across a sea of merch and things and you're just like, I just kind of want to read a story.

00:28:31.42

Claire

At TCAF, I picked up a comic that was completely random, but again, kind of like that first time, it spoke to me and I read it behind our table and it was called The Maker of Grave Goods.

00:28:43.35

Claire

And it was absolutely transcendent. I was just like, oh my God, I haven't felt this way about a comic that I've bought at one of these things in forever. And, oh, it's absolutely beautiful. And I was just like, I want more of this. And I went out to go and look at more comics again. And I wish more people would be able to sit down and be like, I just want to read a story by a person that nobody else could have made the story. And that just doesn't seem to be something marketable right now.

00:29:13.94

Krispy

t's interesting because it makes me think of a lot of like when you mentioned the blorbo in the statue form i'm seeing like a lot of like the advice on the YouTubes and star you've probably seen this where it's just how to make an oc and they're like how to make an oc marketable

00:29:30.90

Claire

Oh no!

00:29:30.84

Star

Okay, yeah, I have thoughts about this. I have thoughts about this, because, okay, I always feel like I'm barely dodging the shade whenever I see it.

00:29:40.98

Star

Let me explain, let me explain. No, no, no, no, wait.

00:29:46.58

Star

is that I have made a similar video, but the big thing was the video that I made was very specifically, you have your Blorbos.

00:29:55.13

Star

Here's how to get people interested in the Blorbos that you've already made.

00:29:57.08

Krispy

yes yes yes that's a big difference yes yes

00:29:58.65

Claire

Yes.

00:29:58.97

Star

It was not, here's how to make a marketable Blorbo. So like, I comprehend the difference, but I do feel like I'm Neo in the Matrix bullet dodging that shade because it's like, it doesn't apply to me, but I feel like people are trying to put me under that umbrella if they haven't actually watched the one video I made.

00:30:13.45

Star

Cause I'm like, no, no, no, no wait.

00:30:15.45

Krispy

No, you've definitely seen them though. You've seen them around where it's just like how to make a marketable Blorbo.

00:30:17.75

Star

Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.

00:30:21.58

Krispy

And it talks about basically starting a business while trying to get people to invest emotionally in it.

00:30:31.41

Krispy

It's just bizarre because, you know, when we talk about Blorbo, because we talk about Blorbo a lot, which is an original character you have a lot of attachment towards. That's the basic thing.

00:30:40.69

Claire

I should have defined Blorbo, I apologize I'm not being academically sound I know

00:30:42.14

Krispy

No, it's okay. It's okay. I think that we're we're and just going to have to do that every episode because we just talk about it so much.

00:30:50.84

Krispy

But when you make these characters, they always come from the soul. They always come from like, oh my goodness, you know I really like this show, but what if I was inspired to make something that fits me a little bit more?

00:31:05.84

Krispy

Or you know what if I looked at a ginkgo leaf and I was like, oh, that would make a cute Jajinka Sona thing. And you know what I mean? Like they come from anywhere and everywhere and they become yours.

00:31:17.17

Krispy

And then you make a comic and then you get the comic disease. And then you're like, okay, how do I get people to care about my ginkgo leaf san? And it's like, okay, You know, this is the journey. This is the important stuff. This is what makes yourself and who you are. And this is what makes you unique when you have these things, when people are walking around conventions and they're like, oh my gosh, what is this comic about a ginkgo leaf person? What the heck? And, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah Like the story, you could talk about that and, you know...

00:31:46.81

Krispy

but as far as expectations go um but you know I'm just seeing a lot more no start with the marketability first you know leave the heart at home you know we're here to make key chains and stuff

00:32:02.19

Claire

I hate it.

00:31:57.38

Star

You know what I think part of it might be is just that like, you know, people, they want so badly to make it their career.

00:32:12.09

Star

that they're like, okay, I want to do this. And then their first thought is, how do I make money on this?

00:32:17.53

Star

Which is not the worst thought to have because, you know, people want to be able to support themselves with the art that they're making.

00:32:26.39

Star

But it feels like the intent is getting scrambombled a little bit.

00:32:33.10

Star

It's like, if you don't love it why are you making it

00:32:33.85

Krispy

Yeah, yeah. And it's just, yeah.

00:32:40.97

Star

There's like a desperation there or like this, I have to make this, but it has to make money. So how do I guarantee that it's going to be marketable and make money?

00:32:50.89

Star

I'm like, ugh.

00:32:52.38

Claire

I remember from my first table, I was like, okay, I'm going to experiment. I'm going to have a mix of my own stuff and some fan art, completely reasonable stuff.

00:33:02.46

Claire

Like, I think I had a picture of Detective Pikachu, which had just come out and I had worked on. So I was like, I want to put Detective Pikachu up there. I had done a piece of fan art for somebody that was Violet Evergarden.

00:33:14.99

Claire

I put a print up there. There were a couple of things that I was just like, let's just see if this sells. And I find that even now, like unless I'm absolutely obsessed with a piece of media, the fan art that I produce is not going to be nearly as interesting as what I'm making myself.

00:33:34.35

Claire

It might be easier to understand.

00:33:36.55

Claire

But it’s kind of like a reverse thing where like, if I were forcing myself to make fan art instead of Ginkgo Leaf Chan, it would be the same sort of thing where you would feel this kind of tension where you're like, this was not made with love.

00:33:51.84

Claire

This was made with obligation, maybe a little bit of interest, but like, again, blue-eyed Edward Elric, it's never going to be a fully realized thing that somebody is going to feel like, okay, you get Ginkgo.

00:34:04.75

Claire

You get this character. It's just going to be like, there he is, there's Ed. He's a little, wrong, but i I drew him. And that's kind of how I feel with fan art where I'm like, I don't have any fan art on my table now. And people might come by and be like, yeah I don't think your stuff is for me. Totally fine.

00:34:22.34

Claire

But I feel like it targets the people that my stuff is for more.

00:34:28.09

Claire

It doesn't dilute that kind of pool of like, here's what I offer. It's more like, here's my thing. You don't have to like it or not, but like the people that do like it really, really like it.

00:34:39.99

Claire

And that's enough for me. I don't need any more than that. And I just don't need to think about it financially. Because I am employed in the Vancouver animation industry forever.

00:34:54.03

Claire

So it's just , I don't know.

00:34:57.78

Claire

I never started thinking about that sort of thing as a starting point. It was just like, I'm just going to try stuff. And people just gravitated more to what feels r eal

00:35:10.46

Krispy

Yeah, I see the advices on YouTube being like, how to be a convention artist. And they're like, well, first, you're going to draw the first 150 Pokemon. And even if you hate Pokemon, you're going to do it.

00:35:21.19

Krispy

And then you know, what's the newest game thing right now?

00:35:21.07

Star

Eugh.

00:35:21.78

Claire

Yeah.

00:35:24.97

Krispy

Draw 80 of it. Dodge Nintendo because they're going to go after you.

00:35:26.24

Claire

oYeah.

00:35:28.91

Krispy

And you know what I mean? It's just like, it's doing this. And then they're like, make an OC. I'm doing like bunny ears. Make an OC, but it has to look like Pusheen the Cat.

00:35:34.61

Claire

Mm-hmm.

00:35:37.72

Krispy

But not. But yes, because people love cats. You know what I like, it's so, it's vapid.

00:35:42.74

Claire

Mm-hmm.

00:35:43.22

Krispy

It's demoralizing. And I know that a majority of people who get into art are like, I need to just draw the thing that makes me just rip my face off. Like, that's usually what gets you into art is that you're like, I just have to do it.

00:35:57.57

Krispy

And so, like, when you see these things, and this is the trend now. that is seeping into these conventions with these expectations, you so it starts to dilute what it's about. It starts to dilute. Is this a comics festival? Why am I seeing so much more fan art at a indie comics festival? i'm And even the word comic convention, there's not comics at the comic convention. There's 8,000 bajillion Spider-Mans,

00:36:26.46

Krispy

sorry, I'm so tired of Spider-Man. but like, that's it.

00:36:30.23

Star

Mm-hmm.

00:36:31.26

Krispy

Like, that's what you'll get. Will you get like indie stuff or will we get the same four guys? And that's kind of it. Before I continue going on, you know, Star, I did want to talk like, what's your opinion? Like, what's different about selling comics in person?

00:36:49.34

Krispy

I guess when you first started doing selling of the comics in person versus now.

00:36:54.84

Star

Yeah, I guess my thing is, like, I don't have a whole lot to say on this topic. I have not, I only just printed the first volume of Cast Off, like, a year and a half ago.

00:37:05.91

Krispy

Okay.

00:37:05.75

Star

So, you know, like, I had my old webcomic, it was like an 80-page little softcover book that was printed very poorly. I sold exactly one at that convention,

00:37:22.74

Krispy

The silence.

00:37:22.58

Star

That's my sample.

00:37:24.82

Krispy

The silence.

00:37:24.79

Star

That's my sample. I was just like, he was like literally the only person at that entire con who paid any attention to the book at all. And when he was like, now I'll get this. I was like,

00:37:39.48

Star

and that was the only time. But i mean i feel like I'm a little bit of an anomaly because most of the people who run up and buy the book well i like not all but kind of mirroring what Clam said is like ah there's a lot of people who come up to buy the book because they know it because they've read it online already

00:37:56.60

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:59.06

Star

So I have a fairly decently sized online following. And so I get a lot of people coming up being like, I know this. I know you give me your book. And I'm like, okie dokie. And like, there are times that I genuinely wonder what would my sales be like if that were not the case?

00:38:18.98

Krispy

Yep.

00:38:19.34

Star

It's like, I don't think you need a social media following to sell things, but I'm going to be fully honest.

00:38:19.68

Krispy

Yep.

00:38:26.58

Star

It helps. It helps a lot.

00:38:27.90

Krispy

Yeah. I think.

00:38:32.69

Claire

Star, I hadn't let you know, but at TCAF, when we were selling cast off, we had somebody come up to the table completely silent for the first maybe five seconds, but then just stand there and start vibrating and going, eeeeee.

00:38:35.43

Star

Oh.

00:38:53.28

Claire

and saw Cast Off and was like, I'm going to buy this. And I'm just like, that is the power of online presence.

00:38:59.17

Krispy

Yep. Absolutely.

00:39:00.57

Claire

A vibrating teenager, like, right in front of your table.

00:39:06.01

Star

Listen, listen, that happens all the time and it makes me smile every single time. It's like 90% of the reasons I still bother bringing my shit to cons. I'm just like, listen, I'm so f***ing tired and that plane ticket was expensive and the food's expensive and everything's expensive, but I get to see some excited teenagers vibrate and I should phrase it differently.

00:39:27.61

Krispy

Oh my god!

00:39:29.66

Star

But it's just like, I mean, literally one of the main reasons I go to conventions is to like connect with the community that I already have.

00:39:35.86

Krispy

Yeah.

00:39:36.63

Star

And so I would say that my perspective on it is coming at it very differently from people who are trying to actively find new readers. Like, you know, I'll get people coming up to my booth who've never heard of me and be like, what's this comic?

00:39:43.51

Krispy

Yeah.

00:39:48.08

Star

And then I have to give them the explanation. I let them flip through the book. And a lot of times they'll walk away with one, but most of my audience are people that already know me.

00:39:56.32

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:39:56.63

Star

So...

00:39:57.98

Krispy

That's interesting, though. It's absolutely interesting. It's different from my experience.

00:40:05.34

Star

Tell us about your experience, Krispy!

00:40:08.51

Krispy

So as we all know, I am a huge fan of TCAF. One of my favorite cons ever of all time. In the before times. And when I say in the before times, that's before the Fire Nation attack. That's before COVID did the big numbers.

00:40:26.10

Krispy

And TCAF was very protective over original art. It was like fan art must be non-existent basically to that point. And it was so, it was nice. So everybody who was coming to TCAF, they're like, oh yeah, you're going to TCAF because you're going to find some original stuff. And as a tangent, people should be treating, this is my thing. This is my hot take and I'm saying it now.

00:40:47.35

Krispy

People should be treating original art, original comics like they covet it. Covet it like you do your labubus.

00:40:56.67

Claire

Mm-hmm.

00:40:56.74

Krispy

Like you should be coveting. You should be absolutely being like, this is unique and this is rare. No one else will get it. Like the numbers are finite on this.

00:41:08.78

Krispy

Like, you know, going to have something that other people are not. Covet it. Like you do your labubu craze or whatever the heck it is right now. Squishy, squishy mochi thingy. But like, yeah, do that.

00:41:19.53

Krispy

I have to do the tangent. But yeah, anyway, my experience with that…phenomenal. Friggin phenomenal. I remember when we were selling Ghost Junk and TCAF expanded to the third floor. And, you know, the usual, they have the salon in the second, which was the room. It was the room. There was a time where like Andrew Hussey of the Homestuckness came in and it was flooded and he couldn't get in. and it just became, it was just the room, the room where they put like a lot of big names in there. And that was actually our first room was we went to the salon. But anyway, we got put into the third floor in one of the years and we're like, oh buns. I wonder how this is going to do because traffic and, you know, pulling at your collar and stuff like that. Anywho, it was freaking awesome. People were coming up because they were like, it is too packed. And that's the other thing is that conventions...

00:42:12.98

Krispy

Please get better at crowd control.

00:42:14.74

Star

Oh my god.

00:42:15.85

Krispy

Oh my God. But it was two packed. People were sardines. They were penguin waddling. But when they got to the third floor, every time you see them come up, they were like, oh, I'm relieved.

00:42:27.27

Krispy

I'm so relieved. That was the year we sold out. I remember it was sold out, cause it's two days and we were doing like the writing.

00:42:31.22

Claire

wow

00:42:35.90

Krispy

Cause I have a co-creator that was signing books, talking to them and my co-creator was selling them. And they were just going *boop boop boop boop *. And I was like, this is crazy. And I don't have a huge presence at all with like the Ghost Junks and stuff like that. And it was just nuts. It was so crazy that our stuff was just going like hotcakes.

00:42:58.55

Krispy

And yeah, It's definitely changed now where people, like Clam was saying, are more hesitant to take that quote unquote risk on stuff they don't know anymore.

00:43:11.68

Krispy

And I felt like in the before times with the tables, I remember my voice, like losing my voice. How many times you say the elevator pitch for your story and then people being like, oh, like it clicks for me.

00:43:24.28

Krispy

It reminds me of this. I'll get book one, two, three, blah, blah, blah, blah. As a another tangent or I guess a side note um when selling books at conventions and you have a comic that has a big series, so Ghost Junk is seven books, one thing to kind of note is that it becomes daunting when you have seven volumes

00:43:46.36

Star

Oh.

00:43:47.10

Krispy

your table so people are like oh. But it's also like it's cool when people are like this is it this is the whole thing and it's like yeah it's all here and they're like yeah you know like they see that there's an ending but also, it's quite daunting. They become more daunted when they see more books. And as another thing that has changed because that used to actually be an incentive. People have been like oh oh yeah, it's ongoing.

00:44:08.96

Krispy

This is awesome. I'm going to support it. But I'm seeing more people be hesitant because nowadays, I guess this is a hot take. I don't know. But this is the angry zone. But anyway

00:44:29.21

Krispy

People are more apt to buy books that finish in one volume. Which is like what they're doing for the graphic novel thing right now is that graphic novels are one volume long.

00:44:37.03

Claire

Yes.

00:44:42.82

Krispy

And that's it. And people are like, yeah, I'll do it because the whole thing is there. I'm seeing that so much more. So people who have like, oh, I have book, you know, three to six or whatever the heck, or one of the stupid people that have seven books, you know, they're like, oh my God, like that's a lot to invest because money and also like accessibility to get in blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:45:02.66

Krispy

Like that's the other thing that is hard for me in Canadians. It's hard to sell when a majority of your readers are in the States and things are mushy right now.

00:45:14.56

Krispy

So it's, they're so mushy.

00:45:14.81

Star

Hear.

00:45:17.28

Krispy

They're so mushy. I'm sorry, everyone. But you know, you have that. There's a lot of things that are preventing people from getting as invested as they used to. But I think that also the graphic novel industry is really making people make shorter stuff and being like, okay, just one book.

00:45:33.58

Krispy

And you know, like webcomics had like the thing where it's the epic that's gonna be like so many volumes and people just bought it. They were like oh yeah! You know this creator is gonna be here i'm gonna get volume two and that was like the normal thing and we would have people that come back. I remember tabling at TCAF because that's it. That's my guy. And they brought their family over and the dad had this young teenager and they're like oh we brought a fan and they want to take a picture of you and I'm like oh my god that's so cute that is adorable and they were like and then we're here for book three and it's like okay like that feels great i'm not seeing that as much with a lot of people. I'm not seeing that on tables with people selling more volumes of their stories it's usually just kind of a one and done um i'm actually seeing less comics

00:46:01.67

Star

Mm-hmm.

00:46:25.46

Krispy

on the tables. I'm staring at people what what's going on? And it's concerning. It is concerning when you have comics conventions and it's there's where's the comics? Where's the comics at? Why am I seeing a print of Dragon Ball Z at TCAF?

00:46:27.15

Claire

Yeah.

00:46:49.72

Claire

Do you think it's also like, talking about the kind of history of web comics specifically as like these big epics that people are totally fine with waiting for books for?

00:47:00.66

Krispy

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:47:01.05

Claire

You were posting about it on Tumblr the other day. The whole thing about people on Tumblr don't talk about web comics anymore.

00:47:07.99

Krispy

yeah

00:47:08.09

Claire

Webcomics are much less likely to be like this kind of, I guess, discussion online like people being like “oh my god I love this thing I'm going to talk about it forever”. It just happens less now. I don't know exactly why, if people are just, they're kind of funneled over to webtoon and they're kind of keeping everything over there there's just less less of a sense of you're talking about web comics at the water cooler and everybody is doing their fandom out in the open like

00:47:43.17

Claire

There's just this sense of like it's so much more quiet it's weird and like to have people that remember you at these conventions and come back and find you again…that's brain space that they're able to spare is probably dwindling because of how complicated modern life is and i feel feel like yeah there was this kind of heyday from like 2010 to maybe 2020 where where, man, webcomics were a big thing.

00:47:57.53

Krispy

yeah

00:48:04.09

Krispy

and we

00:48:14.18

Krispy

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:48:14.72

Claire

And then something just happened where, at least in real life, you just don't really see that anymore. I don't know if it's like homestuck-itis and people were just like, not again.

00:48:27.05

Claire

I don't know. It's less of a conversation point. And when it passes into the real world, like, I do think the whole idea of buying something again, like you said, something that you will covet and treasure, i feel like it's changed more from like, oh, I love this webcomic, I want to buy a book of it to, i don't know if this webcomic is going to exist in five years, Ineed to buy a book of this to like preserve it.

00:48:50.58

Krispy

yeah

00:48:51.84

Claire

And that's a different feeling too...

00:48:54.30

Krispy

and like also like knowing the webcomic too. People are going to take a bigger chance when their favorite xyz says anything about it because i'm seeing a lot more people being like i wish a youtuber would talk about my comic and i'm like really really like that's

00:49:03.44

Claire

Yeah.

00:49:08.24

Claire

Oh, sweet summer child, the monkey's paw curls.

00:49:13.40

Krispy

That's not the only way for your webcomic to be validated. But, I understand people wanting it. But I don't know. And I think, the shift from, you know, Tumblr talk. Because it is the fan website. It is the place. It's all aging population. But anyway, it's the place where people just go rabid and talk about Blorbos. But I think, the sequestering of spaces being like okay you know there's a comic on webtoon that everybody's like but they can talk on webtoon about that and they don't go anywhere else. You i mean whereas like oh my gosh where am i gonna find my fans i'm going to tumblr i'm gonna make a tag blah i'm gonna just vomit about it but yeah i'm just seeing that so much less even in comics that were very popular and had big fandoms on tumblr and their comics are still going i'm just not seeing the vibes anymore and i'm like oh wow

00:50:08.31

Star

I mean, how much of that do you think is just people don't use Tumblr as much anymore?

00:50:13.37

Krispy

Absolutely. Yeah. And like they do them being like in different places and discord. Like, you know what I mean? Discord's like private. So all the conversation is happening, not openly anymore. So you assume no one's talking about it, of course, but it's all Discord now. And I don't know.

00:50:32.70

Krispy

Yeah.

00:50:34.33

Star

You can't ego search on discord unless you join the server. The way that i know because people have told me that there are people talking about my comics and other servers that I have access to and I'm like if i join they're gonna see. What if i just make a sock puppet and join like every other discord and just use that to ego search and

00:51:00.66

Krispy

I guess like

00:51:00.74

Claire

I've considered that. I would either be found out really quickly because I can't keep a secret very well, or I would just be like, I'm going to go insane.

00:51:12.17

Claire

Like I'm looking for this everywhere. Let them have their privacy. Cause if they want to talk about my stuff because they don't like it, they need to have that freedom.

00:51:18.54

Star

It's the need for validation though, right?

00:51:22.51

Claire

Like, I don't know. It's I've, I've thought about it a lot, but I also have been tempted. Mm-hmm.

00:51:27.74

Krispy

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, I think that that need for validation is feeding into what people want from conventions too. And valid, it is valid to want validation. Yes, because you want to know that you're like on the right path. You want to know that what you're doing, you're sinking your time into is something worthwhile. Absolutely. And we've talked about this a lot in a bajillion different episodes with that. But I think like convention specifics It's interesting to see how much that has warped what people think of when they go to table. It's just like, okay, I do really want to obviously sell my original comic about blah, blah, blah, blah. But I know that I'm not going to get anybody interested in it because, you know, the investment they need is...

00:52:17.62

Krispy

it's got to be easier it's got to be easier for them to get invested in no matter how easy your elevator pitch is or whatever like if you have a sticker of Pikachu on your table that will draw them in as opposed to being like this is my original comic about something super niche and yes

00:52:30.45

Claire

Mm-hmm.

00:52:34.23

Star

Can I, at the end of our episode here, drop some legitimate advice about this?

00:52:41.11

Krispy

yes of course you can

00:52:41.75

Star

Because this applies to just online as well, but I find that it also works with conventions. Um... If you are writing or making a comic in a specific genre, I feel like there's probably a good damn chance that you are engaged and enjoy other pieces of media within that genre. For example, Cast Off is like kind of a high fantasy series. And I also happen to enjoy a lot of high fantasy series. I like Critical Role. I like D&D in general. I like all these other things.

00:53:16.75

Star

There's the overlap there.

00:53:18.76

Krispy

Yeah.

00:53:19.13

Star

The key thing is to take advantage of that overlap and use it to go fishing.

00:53:24.41

Krispy

yeah

00:53:24.73

Star

Most of the fan art on my table is D&D adjacent. And I feel like people who enjoy D&D and fantasy stuff would probably also like Cast Off. That's the bait.

00:53:37.24

Star

I have a lot of, you know, like funny little D&D stickers.

00:53:37.53

Krispy

yeah

00:53:41.24

Star

And so people are like, oh, D&D stickers. I love D&D. Let me look over this. Oh, what's this book? And then I hit him with the elevator pitch.

00:53:50.94

Star

I call it the bait and switch.

00:53:50.23

Krispy

Yeah. and And you're doing things, you're doing the things that you also enjoy, though.

00:53:54.55

Star

Exactly.

00:53:58.89

Krispy

You're doing things that are not like, okay, I'm going to draw Edward Elric with blue. I um mean, you like Edward Elric. I don't know why I'm saying that you don't. But, like, you know and you're going to draw, like, whatever, blah, blah, blah something that you don't like just because it's popular.

00:54:13.03

Krispy

Like, absolutely, do things match.

00:54:15.51

Star

I mean, the advice is twofold, right? Because like, yeah, you should definitely be focusing on things that you actually enjoy because I find that your work is better when you are enjoying the things you are making tribute to, right?

00:54:26.55

Krispy

Yes. Yeah.

00:54:27.55

Star

But at the same time, if you enjoy it, you find the people who also enjoy that thing. And if people who also enjoy that thing come to your table, You can pitch them on your comic, be like, hey, if you like this X, Y, and Z anime, check out my comic.

00:54:39.36

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:54:42.90

Star

It's got a lot in common with it. You know how people online will advertise their books by being like, it's this thing mixed with this thing.

00:54:44.81

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

00:54:51.14

Star

I have, for a very long time advertised cast off as it's Fullmetal Alchemist to meets Avatar The Last Airbender with a D&D skin slapped on top.

00:55:01.04

Krispy

Oh my God.

00:55:01.59

Star

And people who come to my table, there's a good chance they're interested in at least one of those three things. And they're like, oh, okay, tell me more. And I just hand them the book and let them flip through it at their leisure.

00:55:13.59

Krispy

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:14.55

Star

The bait and switch. yeah

00:55:18.30

Krispy

God. Yeah, I'm so tempted to go on like a complete rant about that, but. No, no, it's good. It's good. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I'm just like...

00:55:29.40

Star

I mean, that's the marketing though, right? Is people are like, how do I make my comic marketable? No. No.

00:55:37.64

Krispy

Yeah.

00:55:38.65

Star

You make it and you figure out how to present it to people, how to lure them in, how to make it. Making something marketable, i feel like if you try and worry about the marketing before you've even made the thing, you've already lost.

00:55:51.96

Krispy

Yeah. Yep.

00:55:52.79

Star

You make the thing and then you figure out how to present it to people to get them interested in it.

00:55:59.24

Krispy

Mm hmm.

00:55:59.11

Star

That's what you have to be worrying about. That's what you ideally should be worrying about. And that's what you have to think about when you're doing conventions. And that's kind of the advice that I have is like, think about stuff that's already successful that has some kind of relation to your comic.

00:56:13.78

Star

Focus on that for fan art. If you are already passionate about it, like if I hated Critical Role, I wouldn't make Critical Role fan art because I don't give a shit. But itake advantage of that common interest and use it to reel people in.

00:56:29.21

Krispy

Yeah.

00:56:29.68

Star

It's not going to work on every single person, but I find that building an audience is like rolling a snowball. Little bit at a time, you get one fan, maybe that fan tells their best friend about it.

00:56:41.74

Star

I've got so many people who come up to my table and be like, oh yeah, my best friend told me to read this and now i want to buy your book. It's not about marketability, it's about making something that you're passionate about and the passion is what sells.

00:56:54.97

Krispy

Yeah, like that connection to people.

00:56:56.61

Star

Mm-hmm.

00:56:57.53

Krispy

Absolutely.

00:56:57.66

Star

Yeah.

00:56:58.33

Krispy

And I think like, you know, I think connection as the word, that's the word of the day, everyone connection. um You know, when you have conventions and stuff like that, I think that's the thing that we're like, trying to get at.

00:57:12.47

Krispy

Again, like what we're talking about our first experiences or like just expectations and stuff like that. It's just what's missing. It's the connection and how do we reconnect to kind of get back to that.

00:57:24.27

Krispy

And that's a lot of the complicated feelings that I have about conventions these days is that I'm not connecting as much as I used to because the expectations to connect have changed.

00:57:37.55

Claire

Mm-hmm.

00:57:41.02

Krispy

And so, you know, it's interesting when, you know, you do think about the things that you have to do to kind of get people to your table. And yeah, I don't know, it's daunting for that.

00:57:55.21

Krispy

and I'm not trying to end the episode on anything like, you know, conventions suck now. But

00:58:02.55

Krispy

You know, I think that that's something to keep in mind when you want to sell original stuff and you want to have people talk about your work, because I think that's the biggest thing that obviously people want.

00:58:14.33

Krispy

You know, how many times do you see when no one's commenting on my comic and stuff like that is a common complaint, I guess, in the webcomic community is they want that connection.

00:58:19.49

Claire

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:58:25.01

Krispy

and conventions were a really great place for that. Unfortunately for me. Well, not for me, ah for the world, I guess North America, is that I'm seeing less and less indie spaces for those connections.

00:58:41.90

Krispy

I'm seeing, you know, we've talked about it, the expectations to get into conventions is so high now. So you can't just, you know, make your little zines and be like, yeah, these are my blurbosities.

00:58:53.22

Krispy

know, check them out, stuff like that. There's a lot more hurdles to kind of jump for. And even, you know, I don't want to get into the weeds of things, but like the convention setups and like, you know, you can go to, i think it's like conventioncubes.com or something like that, convention displays.

00:59:11.63

Krispy

And it's just all these frosted cubes and people think they got to go into that. And that's like a thousand dollars, whatever range of a professional setup. And then they have to do this.

00:59:21.79

Star

Oh, you can get those frosted cubes for like $40 on the internet.

00:59:22.67

Krispy

Oh, yeah.

00:59:26.57

Claire

Mm-hmm.

00:59:27.66

Star

You just look up like shoe locker storage, modular shoe storage.

00:59:28.41

Krispy

Absolutely. Oh, yeah. But like even that and they want to get the vinyl covers and they want you know to be like they want to get the neon light with their name and they got to get a brand.

00:59:39.96

Star

You work up to that. You work up to that. You start with the basics and you work your way up to that. You don't have to have a professional set up your very first con- Something- Oh, okay, I'm about to go off on a tear.

00:59:52.43

Star

I'll keep it short. People underestimate the value of your tiny local conventions.

00:59:59.00

Krispy

Yes.

00:59:59.83

Star

Oh my God. Your library.

01:00:01.98

Krispy

Yes.

01:00:04.47

Star

Your local library probably has some kind of like annual convention for free convention for kids and teens.

01:00:15.58

Star

Several of my local libraries have them. I've guested at several. Yeah. Because the table fees are free if you yap at people for an hour. I've vended at high schools. I've vended at small local libraries. I once did a comics presentation for three people at a convention that was smaller than my house.

01:00:37.75

Star

Just like this itty bitty local library in the middle of nowhere. But those are great places to cut your teeth and get used to things and learn what works and what doesn't.

01:00:42.55

Krispy

Ah, yeah.

01:00:46.85

Krispy

hmm.

01:00:49.50

Star

So you don't spend $2,000 getting to this massive con and spend all this money and then you don't break even. And then you're like, oh, well, this isn't working.

01:00:56.49

Krispy

Mm hmm.

01:00:57.58

Star

And then you give up and you've wasted all this money and time. Local shows, small local library shows are a great place to start.

01:01:01.94

Krispy

Mm hmm.

01:01:04.82

Star

My first convention where I was like, okay, I'm going to actually take this seriously and do this as a commitment. My first show after I moved back to the States was a little library show.

01:01:17.21

Krispy

I love that.

01:01:17.72

Star

And you look at my setup and it was trash because I was a baby I had just started.

01:01:21.27

Krispy

No.

01:01:23.52

Star

But that was like a perfect experience because I think the table was either free or very cheap. And there it was mostly like kids and their parents.

01:01:35.35

Star

And I didn't sell a lot, but I sold a decent amount of what I had. And it taught me a lot about what works and what doesn't and how to talk to people, how to do customer service. You make a lot of mistakes and then you learn from those mistakes to make your next experiences better. I would say don't apply to a show with more than 20,000 people until you have done at least one tiny local show for like less than a thousand.

01:02:01.05

Krispy

Yeah. And just definitely feel it out and see how that's going. But like, I think the other thing for the local shows is that, you know, those, and I, I went to specific shows, shows that have such a specificity for what they're selling. They were fan places. I love Kupo Con so much. I'm just shouting that out. Cause I love that frigging convention for Final Fantasy. um But because it was so curated, it was phenomenal.

01:02:32.86

Krispy

I felt so good at those conventions. I went as an attendee, so I can imagine how fun it would have been to sell stuff at that. But like when we have conventions that are so much more tailored to specific things and then they also...

01:02:48.32

Krispy

apply a cap. A cap to how many people can go i think that's so important because there is nothing more frustrating than going into a convention and you can't see the table because you're fighting with 3000 other bajillion people and they're pushing you out of the way and there's no accessibility for people in wheelchairs or anything like you know to help them physically. It drives me nuts and And it's just like there's someone trying to get through and no one's paying attention or a giant cosplay is trying to kill you.

01:02:50.86

Claire

Mm-hmm.

01:03:16.32

Krispy

And it's just like, OK, I understand that these vibes are fun. Maybe when you're in high school and you're like, this is just chaos and I enjoy it. But like, holy crow, I think that we should absolutely invest in getting some more caps into this.

01:03:29.61

Krispy

And like another hot take, I guess, is stop being so freaking greedy conventions. You are so greedy.

01:03:36.31

Star

Oh my god, why are tables like $500?

01:03:40.22

Krispy

Yes, absolutely.

01:03:40.62

Star

theres

01:03:41.38

Krispy

You guys are greedy. You don't do any accessibility and you should be doing better. I'm sorry. Like do, oh do better. Do better. You greedy, greedy people.

01:03:52.63

Krispy

Also give us table numbers. Good Lord. like Put them there.

01:03:56.78

Claire

Oh, God.

01:03:58.48

Krispy

and people are like, what table number is this? I don't know. Put them on there. Oh my gosh. It's 2026. That's my, my angry hot state.

01:04:10.24

Claire

Shaking your cane.

01:04:14.17

Krispy

Oh, So, you know, just contemplating the wild changes and conventions and stuff like that, the expectations, the prices, the prices, I think absolutely go local cons. And even if you're someone who's super passionate about it, start your own too. There are grants. Grants are out there.

01:04:34.33

Krispy

Look them up. I swear right now after this episode, look them up.

01:04:36.79

Star

out there.

01:04:38.86

Krispy

They're real. But I'd like to ask, ah you know some final thoughts. Clam, Final thought us. Give us some final thoughts.

01:04:48.47

Claire

I will do my best. I think it boils down to what I have to keep telling myself, which is basically, have faith. Keep going, child.

01:04:59.49

Claire

Keep trying. Basically, just, things are weird right now. They're not always going to be weird. I hope. Please, universe.

01:05:09.43

Star

Nothing lasts forever, for better and for worse.

01:05:13.30

Claire

Yes. I think we will return to some sort of normalcy at some point. Maybe prices won't come down on printing or anything like that, but maybe maybe something will turn around. just I want people to keep making cool things, and I want them to keep making them physically

01:05:52.94

Claire

So yeah, I want people to keep making things, keep making physical things, be a physical presence. Things are weird right now, but you still deserve a spot at these places, and I want to see new people there, so just keep trying, please.

01:06:08.24

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Star, do you have any final tots?

01:06:13.69

Star

My final thoughts, if I could boil it down into one sentence that I think kind of is the umbrella term for any advice that I would give is love what you make.

01:06:25.33

Krispy

Mm.

01:06:26.42

Star

That applies to, you know, make a comic because the topic is what you are interested in and not just because you think it would be marketable. If you're gonna make fan art, make it because it's a series that you love and not just because it's something that's gonna get a bajillion sweaty nerds to buy it. Yeah, you'll make money, but will you be happy?

01:06:46.74

Krispy

Yeah Yeah.

01:06:47.43

Star

And will people value you and your presence at these events if all you do is pin up number 183 of anime waifu of the season?

01:06:58.65

Krispy

i'm so I'm looking at you Genshin Honkai Impact Rail. God, I'm looking at you.

01:07:05.78

Star

Listen listen some of those anime boys are hot i like the the dumb robot cowboy one that that's that's my guy have i played that game no do i like a him yeah

01:07:15.55

Krispy

Oh my gosh. I love that you haven't played that game.

01:07:19.64

Star

He has slutty, slutty hips and I like him.

01:07:22.90

Krispy

Oh my gosh. I'm keeping this in my Brian. Oh my gosh. I think my final thought is a challenge.

01:07:27.06

Star

You're Brian. yeah

01:07:32.01

Krispy

My challenge to you listeners slash watchers slash observer of the ether is that I want you, next time you're at a convention, you are picking up an original comic

01:07:43.35

Krispy

And feel free, I don't know, just share it. Share it somewhere. Just talk to somebody. I don't care what it's about. You pick up the original comic. That is it. That's your quest. You save X amount of money and you're like, well, I'm going to the convention and I do have to pick up one original comic. That's the quest. That's it.

01:08:01.18

Krispy

That is your challenge. That's what I'm going to say for that.

01:08:04.77

Star

Hell yeah, brother.

01:08:05.91

Krispy

ah Very aggressively.

01:08:05.93

Star

ha

01:08:07.79

Krispy

And it's just, yeah, that's it. That's your challenge. Everybody, you were obligated to get

01:08:12.34

Star

The gauntlet has been thrown.

01:08:14.33

Krispy

Yes. Yes, it has. So, yeah. Let's do it. 2026. Random comic.

01:08:19.81

Star

Hmm.

01:08:21.59

Krispy

But with that, that has been an absolute chicken salad Cesar wrap. And I have been your host, Krispy. And you can find my webcomics, Ghost Junk Sickness, and Lunar Blight at the respective websites.

01:08:37.94

Krispy

Dot com.

01:08:40.15

Star

dot com

01:08:42.47

Claire

And I have been Claire Clam. You can find my work at phantomarine.com.

01:08:52.37

Star

And I'm Star, and you can find my comic Cast Off at castoff-comic.com. Mind the tragedy that's currently ongoing, it's fine.

01:08:55.06

Krispy

oh

01:08:58.07

Krispy

They should pick up a comic at a convention about it. Support the indie.

01:09:02.55

Star

crazy.

01:09:05.78

Krispy

Yeah, it is crazy.