In this Episode:

• What are your experiences with critique, good and bad?
• What do you do to prepare? Are there things you can do before/during/after a critique session to make it more helpful for yourself?
• What is your advice for someone who knows they have intense reactions to being critiqued?

Delphie's 5Ws and 1H

• Who are you getting critique from? Unsolicited strangers and friends who just want to be encouraging both have their own blind spots. Peers who know and enjoy your genre and what you’re trying to do can have more helpful nuanced feedback sometimes, but in a group setting in particular, you’re probably going to have a variety of people. Which isn’t always a bad thing, but you do have to expect to meet people where they’re at in terms of media familiarity.
• What are you looking for feedback on? Vague requests of “is my comic okay” can invite vague answers, so being specific on things you want to work on can help. But also note that comics are a hybrid of lots of elements that work together! People are going to be tasting the whole enchilada, and if the hot sauce is mixed in every part and overpowering the other flavors, they should be able to say so in a healthy feedback environment. Being realistic about what people can/can’t be expected to ignore is important.
• When are you asking for critique? Where are you in the timeline of your development process? No right answer here, but if you’re just asking in the scripting stage or a rough sketch stage, there may be things about the execution that you won’t be getting clear feedback on just yet. If you get a piece of critique on something you did 100 pages ago, are you going to be in a place or mindset to change it?
• Where are you asking? Stick to places where there is a specific agreement that critique can be solicited (Sign up for our critique event or stop by SpiderForest!) or ask first. Quick questions can be answered in busy chats, but a big deep dive may need a slower venue or a pre-arranged agreement on schedule with your critique giver. Cold DMs or emails are also tricky if you’re reaching out to people who don’t know you and who haven’t volunteered themselves to be available for critique. Be respectful of people’s space and their time.
• Why are you asking for critique? Self-examination about your motives is important. Critique to get your motivation back or with the hope of getting people to compliment you can backfire a lot
• How are you going to implement the critique you get? What are your plans for processing curveballs you didn’t expect on an emotional level?



Looking to learn more about how to give a good critique? Check out our Patreon for a bonus episode all about Critique, from the Critiquer's point of view




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Episode Release Date: April 15, 2026




Episode Credits:




Christina Major (@delphina2k) - she/her, sombulus.com




Rae Baade - they/them, https://empyreancomic.com




Claire Niebergall (Clam) - she/her, https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.



Transcription

This transcript is auto generated by our recording software.

00:00:31.99

Delphina

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be jamming about critique again, and specifically being on the receiving end of a critique about your own work. I'm Delphina, I use she/her pronouns, and I make the webcomic Sombulus.




00:00:50.87

Rae

And I'm Rae, I use they/them pronouns, and I make the webcomics on Empyrean High and Overlord of Ravenfell.




00:00:59.10

Claire

And I'm Claire, also known as Clam, my pronouns are she, her. I make the webcomic Phantomarine.




00:01:05.60

Delphina

Okay, so webcomics have a lot of moving pieces and critique can be an excellent way to troubleshoot those pieces and get around roadblocks. But asking for critique can also be really scary and receiving it, especially when you're not sure what you're going to get back, can also be a little interesting. So we're just going to talk about it because we want to break that down. We want to make sure that it's accessible to the people who want critique and want to be able to grow in that way and make sure that we have a community and we're contributing to a community that can, you know, give and receive critique in a healthy way. So I'm just going to throw it out. Like, what are your experiences with critique, with getting critique, good and bad? I'll throw it to you, Rae.




00:01:58.36

Rae

Okay, so I used to be in a lot of spaces where it was pretty much expected to critique and often and sometimes that it's expected to critique harshly, both online and offline. So I ended up with pretty thick skin when it comes to that. And I also do want to mention that, yes, there are definitely folks out there in some of those spaces that use critique to bully or put people in their place and feel better about themselves.




00:02:29.05

Rae

So, yeah, like I had a professor once who, his go-to thing was when it was your turn to critique, he would go put your stuff on there and then stab it with a knife to stick it to the wall.




00:02:44.02

Delphina

Are you serious? Like a physical knife.




00:02:46.52

Rae

Yes, a physical knife that he kept in his pocket.




00:02:46.90

Delphina

Oh my God.




00:02:49.97

Claire

That's so extra.




00:02:52.14

Rae

It was. But it set the tone to—he was actually really good at critiquing. But it was definitely a harsh critique because he worked for a graphic design studio.




00:03:05.19

Rae

And, you know, the point of working in graphic design is to meet your client's needs to the best of your ability. So a lot of times he would be like, okay so what were you trying to accomplish? And pretty much focus the critique on reaching to your intention, to or the prompt’s intention, to essentially get to the best and closest to that. So one of the things I do feel




00:03:43.13

Rae

about these spaces for critique is the vibe often ends up influencing the quality of the critique. I've gotten a lot better critique from classes or workshops than casually asking for it in an art forum. And one of the main differences I feel that is the difference between good and bad critique is how actionable it is. Because a lot of people will go, oh, that arm looks weird. It's like, okay, what am I supposed to do with that?




00:04:22.52

Delphina

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it depends on who's giving the critique. I think, you know, sometimes trying to be friendly or trying to be vague is a way to preserve someone's feelings, I guess.




00:04:38.09

Rae

Mm-hmm.




00:04:38.77

Delphina

But sometimes that's not so helpful. I've definitely lived in those other online spaces too, where it was like, if you go in for critique, you're going to get somebody's CinemaSins breakdown of all of the things that they don't like about what you're doing. And to some extent, yeah, I trained as a graphic designer too. Like, you do sort of want to have some things about. like, some direction to make it the most receivable to the audience that it's intended for, but we have a little more leeway in my personal opinion in the world of webcomics because everybody's got different goals for those and some of them aren't even professional. It's just, you know, trying to make things interesting and fun for them. I’ll throw it to you, Clam.




00:05:34.94

Claire

Yeah, I also have art professor stories. And I'm sitting here thinking about how I had two professors that were very similar. Like you look at them and they both have the same kind of outward vibe. They both...




00:05:50.94

Claire

roughly have—they start critiques from a similar point of view. The one that I would want to focus on is like, a really good example of it was my first year drawing professor in college because here she is taking all of these high school students and basically trying to immediately break down this sense of, oh, you thought you were hot shit in high school? Like, here we go. Like, you're actually going to learn and you're going to start thinking about how you're doing art, how you're breaking things down, but not in a way that's mean, not in a way that's meant to belittle, just in kind of a wake-up call.




00:06:34.01

Claire

And she was very, very good about that. She had a very intimidating presence, but it felt very much like somebody who was ready to kind of sit you down and be like, this is the way it really works. And I will teach you this. It's going to be hard, but we are going to try to get rid of some of your bad habits and make you receptive to the idea of critique. Because when you looked at your first piece of the year and looked at your last piece of the year, it was extremely obvious to see the growth. And I think that's what she wanted us to see.




00:07:10.10

Claire

Every piece along the way had its own challenges, but that skill was being built up to the point where at the end, like kind of that, like a good Miranda Priestly Devil Wears Prada sort of vibe where she's looking at you being kind of like, well done. And that's the highest sort of praise that she could give you.




00:07:31.67

Claire

And another one though, that was very similar, but there was never a sense of that “well done.” There was never a sense of like you worked really hard and yes, you might still have a long way to go, but I'm always better than you. I'm always going to be able to find the problem and not in a therapeutic way, like Rae said, like not in an actionable way, just telling you that it's bad.




00:07:56.44

Claire

And I love the two of them together because very similar sort of levels of intimidation, but one you wanted to impress, the other one you wanted to run away from.




00:08:08.60

Claire

And I've run into similar sorts of characters in the world of webcomics, kind of giving that same sort of level of critique where like, I would want to make my work better because I think they want me to make it better versus somebody who's just like, it's not going to be good. So don't try. I think that's such a huge thing that I hold on to.




00:08:34.23

Delphina

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that intent is just so key to knowing, okay, do I feel like I can move on from this? And sometimes it is not there. Like, that's the honest truth. Like, if you're getting critique and, like, they're not into what you're doing or, you know, it was never going to be a good fit, like, for whatever they're interested in, like, there's limitations to...




00:09:02.97

Delphina

how helpful that's going to be. And sometimes that like, the best case scenario is that's not helpful and that's not relevant. And the worst case scenario is you take it personally, you internalize it, you're like, well, I'm a failure now or well, I you know, nobody knows what they're talking about. And I never want to receive critique again because it's always going to be like this. And I don't feel like that's ever true. Like to your point, there's all kinds of ways of giving critique and there's different people who will approach it in different ways.




00:09:35.12

Claire

Yeah, I never want anybody to be afraid of it, even if they've had bad experiences. But it is up to people in that sort of position of power to recognize the damage they could be doing, too.




00:09:50.10

Delphina

And I'm a person who I really want to encourage people who are in webcomic communities with other webcomic creators to give critique, to practice giving critique, to focus on trying to make a constructive tone for themselves and really help people. Because I see it too a lot from people who are just like, well, I tell it like it is. And, you know, I'm just saying what's on my mind. I'm honest about it. And like, yeah, but there's room to like, there's room to be honest and also constructive. And I don't know. can't.




00:10:32.84

Rae

There's such a thing as destructive critique.




00:10:35.93

Delphina

Yeah, yeah. And that sucks. It's always a little bit of a risk going in because you're not sure necessarily how people handle things.




00:10:48.09

Delphina

Yeah, I think it's worth asking for critique because I know from my experiences, I've learned so much. I did come from sort of a situation where I thought I was hot stuff and then I got into college, same thing.




00:11:06.62

Delphina

And like, I had to do critiques in my graphic design classes. And they would point out things and it would, you know, everybody would both have to have their work critiqued and like participate in critiquing other students' works.




00:11:24.37

Delphina

And so you got—it was a really good experience to be able to get the practice of giving critique and speaking up and saying things because otherwise you just get shy.




00:11:37.54

Delphina

You're just like, oh, I don't know. I don't know what to say. But at least in graphic design, it was like everybody kind of had a point because if you're trying to appeal to a larger audience, everybody's going to see your artwork in a different way. So even if it wasn't something that you wanted to act on, it was helpful for me to hear people talking about something from a completely different point of view, because maybe I hadn't even considered it would be viewed that way by that particular audience. Maybe I hadn't even like thought that




00:12:14.71

Delphina

it would be an issue or something else because of cultural things, because of any kind of demographic issue. Like, somebody might see it in a different way than I did. So that was really humbling. That was really important for me. And it's something I took with me to webcomics. Yeah. And I try to do my best.




00:12:39.82

Claire

I think that's kind of the best way of having a critique is, it's getting you out of your own head, but in a therapeutic way. It's not necessarily telling you like, you ignored this or you didn't see this, bad. It's more like taking you above the clouds and being like, this is what other people see. And it'll highly depend on what their background is and what their previous experience is. But like at its best, it's somebody being like, hey, did you consider that this looks like this and you're like, oh, I didn't. Okay, I will take that into account. So yeah, just kind of a revelation, a sharing of minds, I think, in a way.




00:13:24.66

Rae

Yeah, I do think it's important because when it comes to comics, that what you're putting out might not necessarily be what other people see because, you know, they're bringing their own experiences to the table.




00:13:43.06

Rae

So it's that space between being the reader and being the author where some really interesting stuff happens. Because, I mean, we've all read romances where it's like going... oh, that main character is creepy.




00:14:01.85

Rae

But the author never considers it because to them, it's romantic. It's like, hmm, that might have been nice to know ahead of time.




00:14:14.23

Rae

So it's good because you can because some other people can make you aware of certain blind spots you might have.




00:14:24.89

Rae

But the most important part about critique is essentially to make your work the best to your ability in your own voice. So bad critique is like, oh, you should do it like how I want it to be. The Disco Elysium should be about a witch in the Alps trying to find a lost cat.




00:14:52.06

Rae

Yeah.




00:14:52.39

Claire

That's right. I remember.




00:14:53.87

Delphina

Oh, God.




00:14:55.19

Claire

Oh, no.




00:14:56.89

Rae

But no, that's not the story that you want to tell. So good critique should take into account the story you want to tell and how best to elevate your voice from what it is now to what it could be rather than turning the main character into a witch.




00:15:20.65

Delphina

But I want to turn the main character into a witch. Isn't that what everybody wants? Everybody wants that.




00:15:27.45

Rae

I don't know.




00:15:29.94

Delphina

Yeah. It's so true. And I just, I wonder, like, what can you do to prepare? Like, are there things that you can do when you're the person requesting critique? Because there is a lot that's on the shoulders of the person giving the critique, especially in an academic setting where we're seeing a professor or a person of authority. But when you're with peers, I think it gets a little fuzzier, right? So like, what do you do? How do you frame your critique? Is there anything that you can do before or during or after a critique session to make it more helpful or more likely to succeed for yourself?




00:16:16.15

Rae

So for me, I do think exposure therapy is pretty important, but you're not going to start with that. So I think that the first thing is, you need to surround yourself with people that are actually invested in seeing you succeed and know what you're trying to do. So you don't have to necessarily start from scratch in explaining your work. Part of the preparations in art school is you write an artist statement to guide your critics on your intentions and where you're coming from. You might not need to go into that level of formality, but I do think it really helps you for yourself and for your critic to at least have enough self-awareness of what you want and the direction you want to go. That also makes it really easy to sift into what is useful in a critique and what isn't.




00:17:24.44

Rae

And during, I think—it does help to set the vibes and expectations on what you want from a critique. A good point is ask questions to clarify what someone means. And this is especially helpful if you find the critique to be kind of destructive rather than constructive.




00:17:54.07

Rae

Because you at least want to get something out of it rather than just break down in what all your art is, but nothing on how to fix it.




00:18:07.90

Rae

So if someone goes, oh, hey, that angle isn't working, maybe ask them what angle might work and if they have examples. And for after a critique session, I will say sometimes I do need to step back from an especially harsh critique, but often I'll go back and reread it later. And you'll be amazed at how often the tone changes for these critiques. Because if you're being emotional, you will put a lot of that emotion into that critique that might not have been in there in the first place, especially in a more formal setting where, you know, people don't use emojis or anything to indicate tone.




00:18:57.02

Rae

So I do think that is important to keep in mind. And it's also important to give yourself the space to have those feelings before you actually are able to read and process what is being said.




00:19:10.71

Delphina

Absolutely. I feel like there's just so much where you're like—especially when you make vaguer requests, you're not really sure. You're just like, what do you think of my comic? Is my comic okay? And it's like, you're going to get all kinds of answers. You're going to get a lot of different things if you're not very specific. But even if you are specific, comics are kind of a hybrid of a lot of different elements that work together. So people are going to be tasting that whole enchilada. And if the hot sauce is mixed in every part and overpowering the other flavors, they should be able to say so in a healthy feedback environment.




00:19:52.50

Delphina

And so I feel like there is like your kind of—yeah, you do want to be specific and you do want to, in an ideal world, or, you know, you might be going in thinking that people will only talk about the things that you want them to talk about, but...




00:20:13.94

Delphina

Sometimes that's not the case. There are things that people can or can't be expected to ignore and you kind of do need to have that space to be like, okay, I acknowledge this, I’m going to step away if it comes back in a way that feels like it's an attack for me, and then I’m going to see what I can do moving forward.




00:20:40.95

Rae

That actually does make me think of some of the critiques I've given where the person that's getting it goes, okay, I don't want to hear about this thing. But it's so in your face and that.




00:20:57.40

Delphina

Yeah.




00:20:58.71

Claire

Yeah.




00:20:58.97

Rae

That it's like, how can we not talk about it? This is what the comic is literally about. And you don't want us to talk about it. So it's like, there is like, that much where you might want to consider, if it keeps getting mentioned, that you might want to examine why you have that thing in there.




00:21:23.77

Rae

Because... if people think that it's not suiting your comic, maybe ask them why and if there's something you can do where it might make it be able to work.




00:21:40.15

Delphina

Yeah, I think that's one of the beauties of the group sort of setting is that you can get a lot of people's different opinions and you can see, okay, how frequently is this being mentioned? Like beyond just like one person saying it, because one person could just say that's their opinion. You don't necessarily have to follow it because it's not their taste or whatever. But like if you're hearing it multiple times,




00:22:04.59

Delphina

then that's an indicator that, okay, there's something that you can do about this. And everybody's going to have a different way of solving that problem. So I feel like that's an ideal situation for a group thing. Or if you hear something individually, you can say, hey, you know, I got a critique from one person. They said, blah, blah, blah. Like, do you think this is an issue or do you agree or not? And like, then you can kind of get some people, like get some targeted feedback about, yeah, okay, I know what I can do about this.




00:22:40.77

Claire

I'll just hop in and say, yep, this is absolutely my experience. The whole idea of kind of hearing the same thing from multiple people and not wanting to implement it because that's not what you came to the critique for. That happened to me. I never asked for a formal critique of my comic, but I had people basically giving mini critiques just unprompted. Their main thing for me was they didn't know what was happening at the beginning, but they figured it out over time. But yeah, the whole thing kind of culminated in me getting an actual mean critique from someone who I asked for a critique.




00:23:25.40

Claire

And they said the same thing, but they said it really, really cruelly. And it kind of scrambled my brain at first. It didn't make me not want to do it, but it made me kind of glance back and look at those previous things that people were saying about it not being clear at the beginning, being like, oh, okay, like this person's critique sucked, but they were saying the same thing. What can I get out of that? What... Is there a nugget that's shared amongst all of these that I can use to actually make it better? And adding a new prologue actually did make it better. It made it way more accessible. Such a—yeah I always think about like people were saying the exact same thing very neutrally, just kind of saying like, yeah, I got into it and I didn't know exactly what was going on. But then one person was like, yep, I didn't know what was going on. It sucked. I didn't read it. And you're like, whoa, there, like, that's the same thing, but said in a totally different way. But recognizing that it's the same amongst all of them made me be like, okay, this is something that I do need to do. And I think...




00:24:34.17

Claire

I think going back to the idea of kind of going into a critique and not expecting what you're going to hear, like very easy to say, like expect the unexpected or expect to be surprised. But like, it actually really does happen a lot where somebody will be like, yeah, like I know that, you know, parts of this are like this, or my anatomy is weird or my writing is bad, but I just want you to critique the grammar or something.




00:25:02.86

Claire

And that's not what the person is going to be looking at. Maybe they can focus on that, but that's, that's like an editor. That's like a copy editor sort of position. That's not somebody who's being asked to read all of your work, take it in like, give their first impressions. People are going to look at your work as a whole. They're going to look at every aspect of it as an experience, as something that is being beamed into their brain and being like, they're being told like, interpret this. And if there is a problem with how




00:25:38.04

Claire

you have made the comic interpretable, then that's something that you do need to hear because that's extremely important. And I know that like when we were doing critiques for Screen Tones last year, like a lot of the things that I ran into was the person would ask for one specific kind of critique or a focus, but then we would be like, actually, the focus needs to be this.




00:26:06.87

Claire

And I think it depended on the person how they would actually look into it and be they would either be like, oh, yeah, I didn't think about that. That's really interesting. Or they would be like, no, I don't want that. I don't want to think about that. And it highly depends, but I don't know. Sometimes it really is, like, it is sometimes the art. It is sometimes, like, the story itself, the writing. And, like, God help you if you're 300 pages in and somebody's telling you, like, yeah, like the thing to fix is a lot of it. And I don't know how you deal with that feeling.




00:26:46.46

Claire

That's really, really hard. And I feel terrible whenever that's the sort of thing that is being given in a critique. But I don't know. I think I think softening it with kind of like, here's the critique that I want to give you, but like attenuated. So it's not like the full blast, but then also being like, would you be open to me telling you kind of a larger issue with this comic? I think there's been a couple instances where I've seen people do that. And it at least...




00:27:22.33

Claire

kind of creates an environment where you know the critiquer doesn't want to hurt you. They want to help, but they know that they're about to drop a boulder on you and they don't know if you can catch it. So yeah, I find that interesting.




00:27:36.79

Rae

Yeah, sometimes it can be really hard not to drop a boulder on these people, especially when you're not sure how they're going to react. And I think a lot of people that like go out of their way and ask for critique know that there's a lot of people that are not prepared to receive it. So yeah, that, that can definitely be interesting. I do definitely think that it is important to meet the artist where they're at, because there's only so much that you can really critique that is within their ability to fix sometimes too. Some of it is just getting more practice in, and,




00:28:23.62

Rae

That's really not something that a lot of people want to hear, especially since it's like, oh, hey you just need to practice more. It's like, well, so does everyone.




00:28:34.26

Claire

Yeah, exactly. Like, tell me what I don't know.




00:28:38.65

Delphina

Yeah, that's like 90% of it. I would say it's just like you're going to keep going and you're going to keep getting better. And I know a lot of people in my spaces when they ask for critique, they're just like, I'm not going to change any of the previous pages. I don't want to go back. I don't want to be stuck in a reboot cycle, which is fair.




00:28:59.16

Delphina

It's so easy to get caught up on hearing somebody make a list of things that they didn't understand. And you're like, you're exactly right. I need to start over. And like that, then you just, you keep doing the same five pages over and over again because you're trying to get the perfect beginning. And that doesn't exist. Sometimes you can figure out a way to do something quickly. Sometimes it's, it's just going to be a, it's moving forward.




00:29:35.58

Delphina

I do think, especially in terms of a beginning of a comic, that's like your hook. That's your intro. And those are critiques that are somewhat worth looking into. Like, okay, is there anything I can do?




00:29:48.95

Delphina

If I hear a critique, if I agree with the critique, if I know it's something that I want to change because this person has a good idea, what sustainable way could I do to work this out. One that I think about a lot is font choices. Is it that hard to go through and change a font if someone says the font is unreadable? I don't think so. I feel like that's a change that I would be happy to make and that I have made in my own pages because it's not really affecting much. As long as I have the layered files, it's fine. Just picking a different font to make it a little more readable would be an easy change for me. But if someone's asking me, you know, I think you need to make this person your focal character instead of that person, like, ooh, that's tough.




00:30:42.58

Delphina

That's a little much. and you're kind of allowed to step away from that and say, okay, well, like let's look into that into the future. Let's see what I can do to bring that character forward into the future if you think that's going to be a more powerful direction for my comic or something like that. But that does bring to mind to me, like when are you asking for the critique? Because when you're just in like the timeline or the development process like you're in the scripting stage or rough draft, I see a lot of people asking people to look at their scripts, to look at their sketches, to look at their thumbnails, and you can give a little bit of critique about that that's and that's kind of nice to have




00:31:31.48

Delphina

before you get started with rendering the page fully. But there might be things about the execution that you won't get clear feedback on just yet. So that's a thing that you might keep in mind too in the other direction. Like if you ask for critique too early, the helpfulness might be a little on the vaguer side, I would say.




00:31:59.00

Claire

I definitely run into that. I see people asking, I think it's best when there are thumbnails with like little pieces of the script beside it. Like that's, that's kind of the limit that I would go for, for something that is ultimately like an unfinished page.




00:32:17.72

Claire

But even then, how many times do we look at somebody's thumbnails and be like, which character is that? Like, that's, that's just a head with a scribble of hair on it.




00:32:27.83

Rae

Sometimes I do that with my own thumbnails.




00:32:30.20

Claire

Yeah.




00:32:31.47

Rae

Other people's is like, hmm, I don't know how to make what to make of this.




00:32:34.23

Claire

Yeah. Exactly. Like I think asking for critique at the script stage is, it's not something that I feel comfortable doing because I know how much the script changes when it becomes visual. I know that. It's an incredible shift. Like even the best opening script can be absolutely dashed by not conveying it perfectly, or like not perfectly, but appropriately with art and with effects and anything else that you need. I would want someone to not get too far ahead. So maybe like critiquing it, like the pencils or ink stage is probably pretty good. If you really, really wanted to not show like the final product, but maybe I think




00:33:28.47

Claire

I think having like my ideal situation would have somebody present to me a whole chapter, like let's say 30 pages. And the first few pages are complete. They're fully colored, rendered, lettered, everything. Then the rest is not. The rest is still legible, but you have kind of the concept of like, this is what it's going to look like. And that's enough information going forward to be like, okay, here's, here's the initial kind of pitch of what you can do.




00:33:59.55

Claire

Here's how I would evaluate the rest of the chapter based on that information. Like you have to give the critiquer a little bit more than just the basic bare bones of what you're doing so that they know kind of what that final product might look like. Cause it is like, it does depend on everything working together in tandem.




00:34:20.44

Delphina

I feel like the ideal situation is I know what you're capable of, like either because I'm familiar with your work other places. So I know like rendering wise what you're going to be doing.




00:34:34.90

Delphina

And then I just need some rough pencils or something like that to be able to see, okay, this is this is the story and this is how you're paneling it out. I think a lot of people who are maybe new to comics are and are writing things in a Word document or whatever are not really always thinking about how it's going to break out and then that affects pacing. So if you're paneling things and you want to have one big splashy panel every single page that's going to slow the story down a lot in a way that might not be—




00:35:18.87

Delphina

that might lose readers eventually because long form webcomics, they're, they're a long game. They're a marathon. People are going to be reading this over the course of several years. So my policy is always to be sure that I can deliver a lot of information in a short amount of time versus things stretching on and on and people getting lost and people not really understanding where things are going and taking hundreds of pages to do things. Gosh, I'm a hypocrite.




00:35:54.36

Claire

We all are.




00:35:51.26

Delphina

So many pages though.




00:35:54.14

Rae

You're not as bad as some things. I feel like a lot of people get animator brain and it takes like two updates to open a door or something so. Yeah, like things like that, we're not going to see in the script where it's like so and so opens the door.




00:36:21.37

Delphina

I feel like there's a lot of things. So just getting those panels and on the page, even in a rough way, will help diagnose any kinds of issues there. Also, like...




00:36:34.68

Delphina

It matters to me like the depth of critique that you want to get because I know we're on a lot of chat programs like Discord or whatever that might have a place where you can get feedback quickly. And so that's a good place to ask for questions like, oh,




00:36:56.12

Delphina

Is the anatomy reading okay, is the direction reading okay, are my word bubbles on this page specifically okay, and you can get feedback there but then a deeper dive might need a slower venue or like a pre-arranged agreement on a schedule with your critique givers.




00:37:15.99

Rae

Yeah, one thing that I've noticed is a lot of people don't get nearly as many bites when it's something that is very broad. People asking just generally, what do you think of my comic? will not get as many bites as, oh what do you think of this scene? Is it effective for what I'm trying to do? And part of that is because the critique doesn't really have a direction on what they're looking for. But also, it's kind of intimidating, especially if your entire comic is like,




00:38:01.78

Rae

thousands of pages or something, but even 30 pages is a lot of time for someone to invest in your comic, especially if they're busy working on their own which is often the case.




00:38:19.45

Delphina

Absolutely. Being respectful of people's space and time. Also, making sure you know the person you're asking for critique. Because I think if you're a popular creator, you might get cold DMs or emails about, like, hey, you're my favorite person.




00:38:39.54

Delphina

Can you look at my work? Can you tell me what to do because you're my hero? And you can't really necessarily reach out to people who don't know you and who haven't volunteered themselves to be available for critique. So that's another thing that I would lump in that same care category of being respectful of somebody's time and, and making sure that you're good about that.





00:39:15.14

Delphina

So, okay. Somebody gave you a critique and you're sitting there and you're listening to it or you're reading it and you're feeling the wave coming on, whatever that emotion is. It's very strong. It's anger or it's fear or it's self-doubt or maybe even it's like fawning, sort of like, oh my gosh you're absolutely right, some sort of anxiety-driven “I need to do everything now,” and you feel like you need to put on the brakes somehow and kind of slow it down. What is your advice to somebody who knows they're having that intense reaction?




00:40:05.69

Rae

Okay, so first off, what you should not do is print out their PFP and put it on the wall and throw darts at it.




00:40:14.78

Delphina

No, you use knives like the professionals.




00:40:16.50

Rae

Like my professor, exactly.




00:40:18.78

Delphina

Yes.




00:40:19.26

Rae

You're supposed to use knives, not darts.




00:40:22.00

Delphina

Don't do that either.




00:40:22.04

Rae

But first off, I do say give yourself room to have those feelings. It is pretty normal, especially if you're not used to it.




00:40:34.78

Rae

But have them in private. Don't scream at your critique person and demand why they gave you such a mean critique.




00:40:46.17

Rae

Please don't do that, especially if you ask for it. But I would say that it isn't, it is healthy to have those feelings so you can get past them.




00:41:00.50

Rae

And just sit on the critique, maybe come back in an hour or two and try rereading it and seeing if you can actually process it after having those feelings. And learn how to sift through the critique and determine what can actually help you and what misses the mark of your goal.




00:41:21.82

Rae

And I do think it is very important to keep in mind that these critiques are not supposed to be mean. They're not supposed to be insulting. They're there to make you better at what you're already doing.




00:41:38.74

Rae

Maybe to have some breathing exercise exercises and then then come back at it. And so you can actually process what is said rather than processing your feelings and have those to be two separate things.




00:42:03.16

Delphina

Yeah. I feel like for me, like I kind of need a person or a DM or something to like vent like, oh my gosh, look at what they just said, blah, blah, blah, blah.




00:42:14.20

Delphina

Just to get that initial feeling out there because otherwise, if I take a walk, I'm just going to be thinking about it the entire walk around the block.




00:42:23.99

Rae

Oh yeah, I’ll use my partner to shit talk a little bit, but often I'll just come back and go, you know what?




00:42:35.42

Rae

They were right. I need to stop being petty, but I'm going to be a little petty right now.




00:42:40.60

Delphina

We could have a little petty as a treat. It's fine.




00:42:43.22

Rae

Exactly.




00:42:44.79

Delphina

But I think it changes the game when you respond to them or like where you respond to that critique where you vent those initial feelings, like is it on social media, is it like to their face, is it something else? And especially if they see it later, like, are they going to feel like they wasted their time, like reading and giving you that critique? Because people don't generally read your comic with the idea,




00:43:20.41

Delphina

“Oh, I just want to tear it down. I just want to tell them how much I hate it.” I feel like people are generally trying to be helpful in the ways that they can. And that's what I always come back to in terms of, okay, maybe I disagree with them a lot, but I know I'm going to trust that they were coming from a good place and they were coming from their experiences and trying to convey those in some way. And I have to appreciate the fact that they put in the time and effort to look into this, especially because I asked. Because otherwise, if you don't put in that appreciation, then people don't want to give other people critique.




00:44:04.47

Delphina

And that just hurts everybody, I think.




00:44:07.38

Rae

Yeah, I actually went through a long dry spell of handing out critiques because I kept getting people asking for it and they were in no way prepared emotionally to actually receive it.




00:44:22.84

Delphina

Yeah, I feel like that's another thing, like self-examination about your own motives is important because a lot of times I see people coming to get feedback. They're asking for critique, but what they actually want is somebody to compliment them. What they actually want is someone to say, you're doing a great job. Like, this is amazing. Or like maybe they're actually fishing for readers too. And that can backfire a lot. Don't come into a critique space with the idea that that's what you're going to get. There are a lot of times when I'm giving somebody critique, I'm like, I have nothing to say because this is actually pretty awesome. And I like this and that and this and the other thing.




00:45:07.74

Delphina

But that's not what you should be expecting. And the intent should be like, make sure that you know that it's very possible and likely that people are going to want to give you actual feedback for improvement.




00:45:27.38

Rae

I've actually also seen it backfire spectacularly when this happens. And their work is actually really awesome. Because when you ask for critique and your work is already like super up there, sure, you might get more readers or people telling you that you're completely awesome, you should do more. But people will also take that opportunity to nitpick. Because you ask for critique. So now they have to go and search for something that they need to critique you about. Because otherwise you're not getting anything from there that they think that you want.




00:46:15.16

Delphina

Oh, gosh, that's so true. I've seen that too. I feel like I was on a forum once where we had a critique the person above you sort of situation going on.




00:46:27.13

Delphina

And it was just like you got to somebody who was like just it like their comic was pretty good and like the person who wanted to jump in, maybe they didn't have quite as much experience or maybe they just didn't like see anything wrong with it so they found like some little detail like the shoe is weird. And it's just like, is that what you're focusing on? Is that what you're doing? And that can just be awkward for everybody. I feel like.




00:47:07.10

Claire

I keep thinking about how my number one piece of advice is try to get the critique in writing so you can process it at your own pace. And it's not always possible, especially like art school or I’m in animation and like you get your critiques in like dailies calls with your supervisor.




00:47:17.11

Delphina

yeah.




00:47:28.98

Claire

So sometimes it can be really, really hard to take a critique in person. I used to be really, really bad at it. I would never lash out or get angry at the person or anything, but I would push back and I would try to excuse things. I also heard from other people that like, even if I'm being quiet, like I'm listening and my eyebrows are reacting to what the person is saying.




00:47:59.80

Delphina

Oh my god.




00:48:00.54

Claire

It was very funny. It was embarrassing, but also very funny to hear that in hindsight, because I'm like, yeah, yeah, my eyebrows are basically the echocardiogram of my brain. It's just like if they go up, it means I think you said something stupid.




00:48:18.26

Rae

Oh my god.




00:48:19.42

Claire

And I felt really bad about that. So like, I actually, over time, I realized like, I have to learn a way to just become so, so externally Zen about that moment.




00:48:34.97

Claire

It's going to hurt either way. Like if somebody is telling you something that you don't agree with and that's going to make your life harder, just, you have to let it flow past you in that, and in that particular moment.




00:48:49.69

Claire

Oftentimes, ‘cause if they're being mean to you, that's one thing, but like if they're actually trying to help you, you don't want them to feel bad about trying to help you. It's tricky. It's tricky. ‘Cause my viewpoint on critique actually changed when I became a supervisor and I had to give a lot of critique to people. And I saw people that were the age that I was having the most trouble at with critique. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. That was how I was before. I didn't want to go back and change this tiny little thing. I didn't want to go back and do a huge redo of something.




00:49:28.60

Claire

But there's just something about it, at least in a professional sense, it is different, but you kind of do enter into this contract with whoever is giving you the critique. Ideally, if they break it, that's on them, but you can still uphold it as strongly as you can. Be respectful, don't turn it into a fight, absorb it,




00:49:57.24

Claire

but then release that bad energy that you absorbed somewhere else. Again, a partner or going for a walk or stabbing the wall, Something. It's really, really hard to do. And I think it takes years of practice, which is why I think getting something written is always better. Because at the very least, you can do the, like, I can walk away and I can tell that this is going to be hard, so I'll look at it later.




00:50:26.20

Claire

You have control over the flow of information, but if you don't, then those are moments where you can basically just be like, I try and have an echo in my head. It's just like, well, that's just your opinion, man.




00:50:39.10

Claire

Like, that's just your opinion. And it's like, yeah, that is their opinion. And they're sharing it. partially to help you, hopefully entirely to help you. So again, like it was said earlier, like every critique will sound a little bit harsher at the very least at first, but then you go away and you scream a little bit and then you think about it and you're like, actually, yeah, that's, that is a good point. Maybe they said it in a bad way, but that's still one person's experience with my work.




00:51:11.96

Claire

And even if you make a movie and it makes a million dollars. Sorry, bad scale now. A billion dollars. But basically, like there's always going to be somebody looking at it being like, that was awful and I hated it. And you're just like, I don't know exactly what you wanted out of it, but that is your experience and that is going to be someone's experience out there. So like I don't know. It's kind of a long-term fortification process, but it is possible. And exposure therapy, I don't know. But a lot of it just is kind of trying to find that inner peace at that moment and realizing It will be okay. It will be okay.




00:51:53.62

Rae

I definitely think that the main benefit to going to art school was being exposed regularly to both giving and taking critique.




00:52:07.90

Rae

And I know that a lot of people that have not been able to go don't have that built-up resistance to taking it. So it's hard to know where people are when they ask for critique.




00:52:26.49

Rae

But exposure definitely does help. Sometimes you can do it in ridiculous ways like, one of the art forums that I used to frequent actually had a thread where this person was just like, “post your art and I'll insult it.”




00:52:46.40

Delphina

Oh my God.




00:52:47.38

Rae

And people would, and it was actually one of the most popular art posting threads at that time. And most people thought it was really funny, but you did get a few people that got super offended that their art was insulted when they posted in the “I'll insult your art” thread.




00:53:10.58

Delphina

Oh, man, that sounds intense. But like, yeah, were they like really long insults or like, you know, just like snippy little, wow, that green? Are you serious?




00:53:19.90

Rae

Well, the funny thing is, this person actually would usually insult your art in a funny way, but also in a constructive way to point out like, oh, hey, this anatomy is kind of weird.




00:53:35.51

Rae

They would go, “This anatomy looks like it went through the blender. You need to do this, this, and this to, you know, make it look the way you want.”




00:53:47.10

Rae

So it was actually kind of... bad and good at the same time.




00:53:53.30

Claire

But I think that's the best case scenario. If somebody sets clear kind of expectations on what the tone is going to be, so you're not surprised by anything going in, but then they also know what they're talking about.




00:54:06.36

Claire

And especially in a case like that, it's not like, I'll insult it to make myself feel better. It's like, I'll insult it to show you immediately what you need to fix. Like, I think that's something a lot of people want. And I think that's something a lot of people want when they ask for critique, because they are thinking about it more as specific things that they can address to make their future work stronger. Whether it is like you don't you draw this particular kind of anatomy weirdly, or like this perspective is odd, keep an eye on that. Like that's, I think that kind of thread,




00:54:43.54

Claire

that makes everybody more comfortable with the idea of improving because you go in there, you're like, all right, hit me. And then somebody hits you and you're like, cool, now I know how to dodge that sort of, I guess.




00:54:57.59

Delphina

I'm amazed at this. That sounds like an amazing thread. What I kind of like about it is that you can participate. You can see what's going on with other people. So you can see this person say, I'll insult your thread. And somebody else completely unrelated says, OK, here's my art. Insult me. And you laugh along because they made it funny. And now you're like, okay, we can have fun with this. And some of it is like, yes, you're going to be the butt of the joke if you jump in. But that was that was your—you instigated it and you have a little more control over the parameters of when it's going to happen. So as an exposure therapy thing, maybe that's okay. But




00:55:45.76

Delphina

I feel like I would still want to take some time away. And so how dare they, I can feel myself saying, how dare they insult that about my thing?




00:55:58.33

Rae

Yeah, it was really funny. It does sting a little bit, but it's like it's hard to, you know, feel bad about a cream pie being smashed in your face when everyone else is covered in cream.




00:56:12.60

Claire

Yeah, and you asked for it, too. like you went and you're like, hit me with the pie, and somebody hit you with the pie, and you're like, ow, how dare you? I look like a fool. But also, this was what I wanted. Thank you




00:56:25.49

Delphina

That was like 90% of the game shows on Nickelodeon in the 90s too. Like hit me with a pie. As humans, I feel like we like hitting people with pies and we like getting hit by pies and on some level, right? But it's different, I guess, when it's your magnum opus or your story that you've been thinking about for years and years so I do feel like that space sounds fun but I also want spaces where people are more respectful.




00:57:01.18

Delphina

For me, I guess, I always try to plan, like, okay if I get a curveball, if somebody goes back and says I need to change something that I don't want to change, what potential plans would I have for doing that? Could I do that in a second story? Could I do that like in an a future chapter? Could I make some like smaller changes along the way at least to show the critiquer that I listened and that I cared about what they said ultimately after the wave of emotion has passed because that's the thing—I’m just very community brained. I want




00:57:47.51

Delphina

communities to thrive. I want healthy critique spaces to exist and continue to thrive. And I don't want anybody to be afraid of getting critique. And I don't want people being afraid of giving critique because they're, you know, we don't—it feels horrible when you give a critique, you give something that you think is honest, but helpful. And the person runs away and says,




00:58:16.12

Delphina

“Well, now I don't want to make comics anymore.” I mean, that sucks. Nobody wanted that. And I feel like just understanding nobody wanted that, it helps me temper my emotions a little bit.




00:58:34.62

Claire

Yeah, I feel like you're so experienced with giving critique in the SpiderForest arena, basically. The whole point of SpiderForest, at least in that degree, is to help people get better. The point of the critique is to help someone get into SpiderForest like in the future, whether they do a resubmission or not. I wish people would realize you want to help. You don't want someone to run away. I don't approach any critique, I don't look at any comic, being like, you should stop making comics. The only time is if it's actively like hurting you or you’re unhappy or something.




00:59:19.64

Claire

But no, I want your comic to be freaking amazing. I want everybody to have exactly what they want in terms of audience and people being engaged and understanding things. Sometimes you just need someone else's opinion to kind of nudge you in that direction. Like my comic would not be what it is now if it had not gotten critique over the years from some of the people in here. I have whole bits of chapters that are different now because of what some of my friends have said. And I'm like, that's actually a really good point. I didn't have that planned.




00:59:53.41

Claire

It's going to be hard to do, but I want to because they've given me something to go off of. And I don't know. I never want anybody to be discouraged.




01:00:05.05

Claire

It's awful when they take it a certain way but then you also end up being like, was I too harsh? And when you think that you weren't. like, what do you do there? It's really really hard.




01:00:15.74

Delphina

Yeah, I think we can get there. I do.




01:00:18.84

Claire

I do too




01:00:18.89

Rae

Yeah.




01:00:21.27

Rae

Yeah, we just need people to realize we want you to succeed. If we didn't want you to succeed, we probably wouldn't be joining the conversation in critiquing you.




01:00:36.76

Claire

Exactly.




01:00:39.13

Delphina

Yeah, absolutely.




01:00:42.97

Delphina

Okay, well, on that note, yeah, absolutely stop by SpiderForest if you want a critique. You can get a critique whether or not you apply. We have a little critique forum in our hub, so you can go there, make an account, and we'll give you a critique if we can. and we also have a critique event with the Cartoonist Co-op coming up in June.




01:01:08.95

Delphina

I want to say. So that'll be another fun opportunity if you're looking for critique to seek that out too. But yeah, other than that, that's a chicken salad Caesar wrap. Thank you so much for listening. I have been your host Delphina and you can check out my work at sombulus.com.




01:01:29.02

Rae

And I'm Rae, and you can check out my work at EmpyreanComic.com or Overlord of Ravenfell on Webtoon.




01:01:38.33

Claire

And I've been Claire Clam. You can check out my comic at phantomarine.com.




01:01:44.09

Rae

So who wants to insult my art?




01:01:47.19

Claire

No, I can't do it. I'm putting my knives away.




01:01:49.43

Delphina

I can.




01:01:52.63

Delphina

I want to stab it with a knife.




01:01:54.42

Claire

No… such violence.

In this Episode:

[REDACTED]




----




Episode Release Date: April 1, 2026




Episode Credits:




Ally Rom Colthoff (@varethane) - she/they, chirault.sevensmith.net wychwoodcomic.com




Christina Major (@delphina2k) - she/her, sombulus.com




Kristen Lee (Krispy) - she/they, https://ghostjunksickness.com https://www.lunarblight.com




Claire Niebergall (Clam) - she/her, https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.



Transcription

This transcript is auto generated by our recording software.

00:00.00

Krispy

extremely orgasmic episode

00:03.65

Delphina

Oh my goodness.

00:04.28

Varethane

Say that again.

00:04.86

ClaireClam

Wow.

00:05.78

Krispy

five times fast

00:05.78

Varethane

Say that again on air.

00:06.29

Delphina

Oh, we are recording. Hello. Hello. And welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today, we're going to be talking about a very important tool for webcomic creators. I'm Delphina. I use she, her pronouns, and I make the webcomic Sombulus.

00:24.19

ClaireClam

I'm Claire, also known as Clam. I use she/her pronouns as well. I make the webcomic Phantommarine.

00:29.96

Krispy

I'm Krispy. I use she /they pronouns, and I make the webcomics Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight.

00:35.86

Varethane

And I'm Verathane. I use she/they pronouns, and I make the webcomics Wychwood and Chirault.

00:42.48

Delphina

Okay, so there is nothing more important than learning from your peers and mentors. We talk about this a lot. It's important to read comics. It's important to study how things work so you can integrate techniques into your own journey. And one classic way of doing this is using your inhale ability to consume other creators and use their skills as your own. There's so much knowledge to be gained by devouring people and objects around you. So today we're gonna talk about it. So I'm going to throw the first question to you, Krispy. What is your experience with eating other creators for your artistic growth?

01:21.53

Krispy

Well, first of all, it's a wonderful source of nutrition. And sometimes I find that like when I'm feeling a little down, you know, a little sluggish, you know, I think it's just an instant pick me up.

01:33.30

Krispy

You know, you kind of just go at it with some forks and knives and it makes it really easy, especially when it's like I have a lot of artists that I look up to. And so my list is quite long.

01:44.86

Krispy

It's quite easy to, you know, find a bit of a target. I don't usually like to work use the word target. sounds a little aggressive, but you know,

01:52.09

Delphina

People kind of react to that, yeah.

01:54.01

Krispy

Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to say my inspiration. I'll just use that as a blanket kind of term for it. But, you know, I find my inspiration and, you know, yeah, I just kind of go at it. I've got some custom tools that I actually use for consumption of an artist that I really enjoy their techniques with. And, you know, I think that with the proper tools, like a good fork, a good knife, you know, you can kind of get into you know, cutting away the parts that you really do like and and just devouring them, just seeing how it tastes for your own self. I find that really helpful. So that's my experience.

02:36.44

Krispy

You know, it's kind of varied. I've been doing this for many, many, many years. And, you know, it just depends on how far you want to go.

02:53.02

Krispy

Sorry. Okay.

02:59.68

Delphina

It's true. It's so true. I mean, like you can't really, there's going to be different limits for different people. And there's no one right answer. We talk about this a lot on this podcast. There's a lot of ways to make web comics and to enhance your artistic growth. So I feel like, yeah, whatever you're comfortable with is kind of key here.

03:20.76

Krispy

Absolutely. I think that's just that's paramount is just being comfortable with, you know, those techniques and who you just go after. And, you know, I've learned that this is just great it's a great method to get over a lot of my hunger for new kind of skills. And I've grown a lot from it. It's wonderful. I would always eat people. Yeah.

03:49.30

Delphina

I mean, that's the thing that's like, great to hear. And that's what we're talking about. It's come up in our chat, too, in the Discord server. So if you're not in our Discord server already, you should definitely join in because we have really important conversations like this. I'm going to also throw it to you, Clam. What is your experience in this area, eating other creators for your artistic growth?

04:11.11

ClaireClam

I'm so glad you asked. If you hear anything outside right now that sounds like helicopters or sirens, don't worry about it. They're trying to find me because they're jealous of me trying to eat people.

04:23.85

ClaireClam

I'm really, really good at it. And I haven't gotten caught yet, but you know, they might get close.

04:28.71

Delphina

That's great. Yeah, I mean, I have heard sirens and stuff recording with you before, so

04:30.10

ClaireClam

Yeah.

04:34.07

ClaireClam

Yeah, yeah, you know secret's out. It's because I'm a cannibal. And like, the thing is, I'm just really lazy. I don't want to work hard at getting good at art.

04:45.91

ClaireClam

I just want to eat people and consume their power. I want it really badly. I think that it's like, you know, sometimes shortcuts are totally fine. And I think in today's modern landscape, everybody seems to want a shortcut to getting better at art. And some people want to destroy the environment. And I just want to, you know, just want to eat people.

05:11.61

ClaireClam

I think it's perfectly fine. I once ate a guy because I didn't want to learn how to draw hands. And Kirby style, I had a hand growing out of my forehead right after that happened. But I got really, really good at drawing hands. So, you know, it's a win-win.

05:29.94

ClaireClam

Your hand was raised.

05:31.76

Delphina

Yeah. well

05:32.83

Krispy

I couldn't stop laughing. I was going to interject, but then I just blew up. When you said that you had a hand on your forehead, I was just going to be like, oh, what would you consider a shortcut?

05:42.23

Delphina

Yeah.

05:52.98

Delphina

I mean, this is a very important conversation too in the age of AI and everyone's trying to do things. I think the cannibalism route is something that's kind of true and tested and doesn't damage the environment too much besides like one person's day, right?

06:08.89

Varethane

I know the AI guys are clearly just doing it because they want what we have.

06:13.66

ClaireClam

Yeah, they don't have good taste and they don't taste good.

06:14.54

Krispy

oh yeah

06:17.27

Varethane

No no, neither of those things.

06:17.94

Delphina

They don't taste good, I know, neither of those things. It's just, it's really gross to hear what people will do to make art. And like, I just encouraging everybody to go back to something wholesome here.

06:31.68

Delphina

Right. So, I mean, that's really important too.

06:36.19

Delphina

I'm going to throw it to you, Thame. What is your experience with devouring other creators for your artistic growth?

06:42.23

Varethane

Well, I feel like the bulk of my own eating experiences were long enough ago that, like, they kind of fade into the past, but I did my time in the mines of eating many other creators. I would idolize cool stuff that I saw other people doing, like… this coloring style, It's just so cool. Like, this like graphic approach to it. It's hard choosing between different styles and finding your own voice in your artwork. So… you know. I simply ate people who had what I wanted to, to obtain it for myself.

07:17.30

Varethane

But it definitely get tricky after a certain point because after you've consumed enough other creators, you start really having to look over your shoulder for other people trying to do the same to you. I just can't even think of how many times I've had to fend off Krispy from eating my eyebrows off. I keep regrowing them, but like, it's tough.

07:37.68

Krispy

They're so delicious.

07:38.01

Varethane

They're starting to lose hairs.

07:38.60

Krispy

Oh my god.

07:41.14

Varethane

They're not growing back properly anymore. So, you know, you gotta watch yourself as well. It's one of the caveats to this strategy. It's very effective though.

07:52.25

Varethane

I can't recommend it enough.

07:52.38

ClaireClam

Krispy, what powers do you get from eating Thane's eyebrows? I've always wondered if it feels like it should be very powerful. Like what do you unlock?

08:05.46

Krispy

I actually get kind of a time variant. So when I started to eat people's eyebrows, the really cool thing is that, I think, so we are not aware of our time on this earth. But when I eat eyebrows, there's a plus five that happens. And that's like a five extra minutes. So when I eat an eyebrow, I get an extra five minutes. So it's why it's a delicacy to me personally. I could become immortal.

08:33.27

Krispy

I choose not to though.

08:35.10

Varethane

Yeah, it is unfortunately something unique just to my eyebrows because I really focused a lot of my, I min maxed, so to speak, a lot of the other creatives that I ate. I was aiming towards a speed build, like to get really fast at doing art. So unfortunately, that's my trait.

08:53.05

Varethane

But don't even think about it, listeners, you're not getting any of this.

08:57.88

Delphina

Yeah, for sure. It's difficult. I've tried to eat Thane's eyebrows before. She's very fast and she has a bike and she can ride away super fast as soon as she thinks that you're going to come up and eat her eyebrows. It's yeah, I feel like that can be a challenge for me. For my own experience, I feel like really it started in school. I was an art major and there were just, I wasn't really going the traditional drawing route. I was doing more graphic design stuff, but even there I was seeing skills and things that could help me on a comic journey. So at the end of the semester, a lot of the professors were like, yeah, okay, you can eat me. I'll respond. And so we're like, great. And so all the students devoured the professors and kind of gained their experiences. So that was kind of my first experience. And I know a lot of people have this kind of weird thing about, oh, self-taught versus going to a school or university or something.

09:57.72

Delphina

There's advantages to both, but I will say in a more formalized way, like it's kind of more banquet style when you're going, in a, in a college or or art school situation, you can kind of split up things and it's a little more orderly as opposed to when you're kind of going it alone and you're trying to be self-taught and you're trying to eat people off the street. Like that can be really tricky and informal. It kind of takes the right brain to do this. I t just kind of depends on your style. There's all kinds of ways to go about it.

10:46.79

Delphina

And I'm really, like, super curious just to ask around other helpful techniques you've learned from devouring other creators. We talked about the plus five that Krispy gets from Thane's eyebrows, but, you know, what else? Like, do you get laser beams? Do you get, like, the ability to draw hands, like Clam was saying? Like, what other things are out there when you eat other people?

11:04.54

Krispy

It's interesting because it varies so much. And, you know, I think that you do have to be a little picky when it comes to devouring people because, you know, I think of inspiration boards. You know, you kind of come together and you put together kind of a menu. You know what I'd call it a menu of sorts. And, you know, I think of putting together images, artists that have techniques that I want, and I'd like to see it all together, all on and an image. And, you know, from there, that helps, you know, get into that mindset. That helps with your trajectory and getting your tools ready and knowing where to go. You know, when Clam was talking about how successful she was getting to these artists, you know, that blew me away because, you know, there's a curve to get there. It's not just, you know, okay, that's it. Like, you know, we were talking about the AI bros where they just, they skip the most important steps and those steps are what make you as an artist, I think.

12:16.25

Varethane

And that's why they're so unnutritious.

12:18.44

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, it's a lot of it is always actually not a lot of it. It's always going to be about the journey. So, you know, as far as like powers or or things that I've learned, it's just vast.

12:33.84

Krispy

It's vast. When I build that menu, I'm curating it. I'm just like, OK, you know, I love how this artist draws hair and, you know, look out. because I'm gonna get you, and I do. And it's great because you know those are just the skills that you've learned you can get to that point that you get that artist and you watch how they draw and then comes their time where you– sorry oh I'm so sorry holy shit.

13:07.16

Varethane

You got this.

13:10.42

Krispy

Then comes their time where, you know, you get that, that skill, you devour them, you know, bit by bit. And again, it is about curating, sorry, a bit of being particular about the menu that you've created to get those skills. Cause you can get many skills. You can get hands, you can get, you know, plus fives.

13:36.63

Krispy

That's different. I think, the eyebrows kind of aspect when you're getting picky with, you know, specifics. That's a secret. I don't know if I can, I don't want to reveal that in a podcast to be quite honest.

13:49.30

Delphina

That's understandable. Yeah, it's everybody kind of got their ways of going about it and their different techniques. And you do have to be careful about how you approach this for sure. I'm going to throw it to Clam like things that I'm also going to ask, techniques that you've gained that really worked for you and techniques that did not work for you at all. Like you consumed somebody and you tried to use their ability and it just did not work for you.

14:18.20

ClaireClam

Yeah, so I made the mistake one time of eating too many people. And when that happens, your style kind of gets all, like, insane and crazy. And, like, there's, it's not very coherent once you get past, like, ten guys.

14:36.18

ClaireClam

And...

14:41.32

Krispy

It's so good! good!

14:44.22

Delphina

It really isn't. It's just, it kind of gets muddled. I've done the same thing. It's just so that like, they kind of kind of rumble around in your tummy and you're like, Oh, that that was too much.

14:56.86

Delphina

But I think it's important to have that too-much moment, like, because then you know where your limits are, right? Then you know, this is what's important to me.

15:05.14

Varethane

You got to really take care with the specs on your build.

15:02.58

ClaireClam

Yeah. And I think it, that's true.

15:09.50

ClaireClam

I do think it had kind of a weird effect because I suddenly got really good at collage and like, that's something that I never really thought would happen because suddenly you have like all these different styles all fighting for each other and you're like, wait, what am I going to do with this?

15:24.98

ClaireClam

And then you look at a magazine and you're like, oh, I know what to do with this. And suddenly you make a really good collage because that's the souls of 10 people all fighting inside of your body for dominance.

15:36.35

ClaireClam

And they can all have a little piece of the pie. So that's totally fine.

15:39.58

Delphina

Is that how mixed media works? Is that how they've been?

15:41.78

ClaireClam

I think so.

15:43.20

Delphina

Oh.

15:44.01

ClaireClam

I think I've always, like when I was in art school and I looked at the mixed media side of the class, I was always like, hmm, they're eating...

15:53.59

ClaireClam

Really too much like I would see them constantly eating and I'm just like I where's all of that going but then you look at their art and you're like I understand like there is there is there is a method to this madness and I don't think it works for me because mixed media is not really my thing but if it is yours then maybe that is something for you to consider

16:18.62

Delphina

Absolutely. I feel anything can kind of work in the world of web comics. And you know, just considering different things, trying them out, see what doesn't work.

16:31.25

Delphina

You know, it's okay. It's okay to experiment. It's okay to devour anything and everything that you want. So yeah, I'm going to throw it to you, Thane. What kinds of things, abilities have you gained from, devouring other people or objects or what really worked for you and what didn't work for you.

16:54.58

Varethane

Well, I mean, like I said earlier, I really specced into a very speed focused build and I've been actually thinking that I really need to kind of go back in the other direction. So I'm keeping my eye out now for something that is more kind of render oriented that can really get into the details and like you know, those big, like impressive paintings.

17:30.68

Varethane

So I'm kind of keeping an eye out for possible targets in that line, just because, you know, if you focus too much on one type of artist to devour, you can end up with a lot of the same skill and you sort of lose focus in other areas. So that can be one, a bit of a bit of a pitfall, I guess, because I did get very fast out of the bargain, but I need to, I lost some of the detail. So I've got to regain that somehow.

17:48.65

Varethane

Making my list.

17:49.88

Delphina

Yeah, yeah, I feel that. And for me, I was just, like I've been working on Sombulus. It's coming up on like 16 years at this point. And it's, it's a lot. And I've learned so much. I've met so many wonderful artists over the years that I've later consumed.

18:10.44

Delphina

And I think that it all helped me in the end, but it took a while. And so I feel like maybe being a little more deliberate, making that menu, like Krispy said, to really focus on what powers I want for what scene would be a good idea. That's kind of one of my regrets for webcomics.

18:42.90

Delphina

But I've gotten a lot of... speed, I've gotten a lot of good character interactions. Like if you eat two people at once, like if they're friends or something like that, I think you kind of get that voice for dialogue that you might have otherwise, like you might not have with just one person.

18:57.70

Delphina

So like eating in pairs kind of works for me. But yeah, there's a lot of different ways to go about it, I guess. I keep saying that, but it's true. It's so true.

19:08.48

Delphina

And I just want people to know that their culinary experience can be as vast as they need it to be for sure.

19:18.52

Varethane

Eating in pairs, wow. That's impressive.

19:08.54

Delphina

I mean, yeah, you kind of have to open your mouth a little wider, and stretch your face out a little bit. It looks a little eldritch not gonna lie.

19:29.69

Varethane

Unhinge the jaw, I see, I see.

19:31.35

Delphina

Yeah, unhinged like a snake, you kind of get that snake jaw thing going on and just devour people. I think it works. But it takes practice for sure. So you're just keeping it in mind seeing what's comfortable for you. And as you grow, you'll be able to eat more and more people. So I'm going move on like what's your advice to someone who's having trouble finding ways of eating other creators maybe it feels like there's a morality issue there or for whatever reason is struggling do you have any techniques or or things to kind of make that easier for people I'll throw it to you Krispy

20:12.28

Krispy

Well, first things first is that, you know, all of our journeys are going to be different. All of our techniques are going to be different. And how you get from to B is going to be different from someone who does the journey from A to C. It's just interesting. So, you know, when you're creating that palette, that menu and you are going to have that certain palette, it's going to be different. And that's OK. That's OK. You're not going to have the same effects too as eating a creator, even if it's the same one, because, you know, like we've established, they do kind of revive. There is like a hub that creators do come back when they are devoured. It's really cool. Kind of like a Vita chamber. Anyway, So, you know, they come back and, you know, someone else wants to devour them like the professors all at once. But you're not going to come and walk away with the same ah technique that someone else did, because, you know, like I said, it's about picking and choosing and all artists have different kinds of things that. you know, you're kind of attracted to what you want in your own art. So say one artist has a really amazing technique with hands, but someone's like, the way they color is where I want to be. And so, you know, you're, you're just kind of picking and choosing from that. And sometimes, sometimes the feast is unsuccessful. And, you know, when I say that the feast is unsuccessful,

21:40.97

Krispy

That's not meaning it's a failure. You're still learning from it. But, you know, you're not going to just automatically walk away with an incredible hand technique. So you're going to have to just kind of expand that menu a little bit. Look at some more artists that fit, you know, what you're going for. And sometimes, you know, you're going to find something somewhere else, you know, off menu or just somewhere where you weren't thinking or like Clam has experienced become a different artist altogether. So, you know, I just think that that's really important to keep in mind and not be so stressed when you're thinking about, you know, your artist's journey and eating people. It's important to eat.

22:34.67

Delphina

It's important to eat. I think we all needed to hear that for sure. And I kind of want that on a t-shirt right now. But I'm going to throw it to you, Clam. What kinds of advice do you have to give someone who's struggling with finding ways of eating other creators, or for whatever reason?

22:53.18

ClaireClam

So one thing that I think a lot of people are struggling with today is this idea of separating the art from the artist. Because there's a lot of people that make really, really amazing art that are actually not good people.

23:07.42

ClaireClam

And I think the method of like finding them and eating them is actually a really, really good way of being like, okay, like maybe there's a morality issue, maybe it feels weird, but like at least I'm eating somebody who's mean and I'm absorbing whatever is good about them and I'm taking it from for myself.

23:25.78

ClaireClam

So ultimately like that is a good way of getting more comfortable with it. And then you can take the things about their art that you really like and just take it for yourself and put it out there and be like, it's mine now. And because it's been removed from the bad person, it's better. And, you know, I think everybody is going to struggle with the idea, you know, the first couple of times where you're just like, I really want to get better at this thing. I really like it. But I think that is one technique that I find is really, really good for just kind of dipping your toes in and being like, hmm, how can I justify this? Oh, wait, this person made something I love and I hate them.

24:07.56

ClaireClam

I'll just eat them.

24:08.98

Varethane

The Death Note approach.

24:10.45

Delphina

Well, I was going to say the Audrey 2 approach.

24:10.46

ClaireClam

Yes.

24:12.70

Delphina

I mean, I think either or. Like, you can kind of get started on that path anywhere. But that's a really good point that separating the art from the artist and being able to tell, like this is a technique I can use.

24:26.52

Delphina

I don't need to like this person. But it's still something that I can use and learn even if I don't agree with them. And you know to that end, they are contributing to your dietary needs.

24:40.14

Delphina

So I think that's really cool to hear.

24:40.40

ClaireClam

Yeah.

24:43.30

Delphina

Thane, I'm going to throw it to you. What kinds of, like, do you have any advice or recipes or something for people who are having trouble with eating other creators?

24:55.61

Varethane

Well, I mean, it's funny that you should mention that because there's something I've been thinking about for a while, and you could say it's a potentially infinite source, once it can be perfected. I like to call it the perfect recipe for Mother's Day.

25:08.92

Varethane

Water, 35 litres. Carbon, 20 kilograms. Ammonia, 4 litres. Lime. 1.5 kilograms, phosphorus 800 grams, salt 250 grams, saltpeter 100 grams, sulfur 80 grams, fluorine 7.5 grams, iron 5 grams, silicon 3 grams, trace amounts 15 other elements.

25:36.61

Delphina

Uh, that sounds, that sounds familiar. Oh. Oh God. Okay. We're going to have to edit this out. I don't, I don't think we can…

25:47.26

Delphina

No, dear God.

25:48.31

Varethane

Feel free to try this out at home, and let me know the results. I'm very curious.

25:49.88

Delphina

No.

25:50.04

Krispy

Can I have a print of that?

25:52.12

Krispy

I would love to get that printed.

25:53.18

Varethane

Oh yes, I'll share it with everyone.

25:54.52

Krispy

Thank you.

25:54.81

Delphina

No.

25:55.56

Krispy

Infinite.

25:55.68

ClaireClam

It sounds delicious, please.

25:55.84

Delphina

Oh God.

25:56.95

Krispy

Yeah.

25:59.51

Delphina

Okay. Yeah, I was gonna say something about I don't even know what I was gonna say anymore. Oh, God, I have to stare at a wall. I'll be right back.

26:16.89

Varethane

You okay, Delphie?

26:18.71

Delphina

Yeah, yeah.

26:19.83

Varethane

Are you going to go try the recipe?

26:19.99

Delphina

Oh…

26:21.03

Varethane

Please let me know what happens when you do.

26:23.45

Delphina

Yeah… yeah that's what I'm going to do… It's going to be great. So is that a chicken Caesar salad wrap? Or...

26:35.64

Varethane

Are you sure it's chicken?

26:40.91

ClaireClam

Oh, asking the right questions.

26:49.18

Delphina

No, it's probably not. But I've been Delphina. You can find my webcomic, Sombulus, at Sombulus.com.

26:59.47

ClaireClam

I've been Claire Clam. You can find me at phantomarine.com.

27:03.56

Krispy

Hmm. I'm always going to be Krispy, fortunately. And you can find my work at ghostjunksickness.com and lunarblight.com.

27:13.10

Varethane

I'm Varethane and you can find my work at wychwoodcomic.com and chirault.sevensmith.net for at least as long as I continue to have my eyebrows.

27:22.49

Krispy

Oh yeah. Right.

27:23.93

Delphina

I mean, but they grow back. It's fine.

27:26.97

Varethane

For now.

27:29.14

ClaireClam

So is this episode going up on August 8th or is it going up sooner?

27:33.98

Delphina

We can bump it up to maybe April, I think.

27:37.18

ClaireClam

Okay okay, we've got room.

27:38.42

Delphina

But August 8th is a good idea.

27:38.95

Varethane

Sounds good.

27:40.02

Krispy

yeah August 8th

In this Episode:

• How important is it to you in figuring out the purpose of your characters in the narrative?
• Has there been a character in your work - OR in another work you love - where you think readers treat their behavior as if they were real? What do people think of them, and why do you think that is?
• What are some pitfalls you see writers fall into when they treat characters too much like people in their story?

----

Episode Release Date: March 18, 2026

Episode Credits:

Ally Rom Colthoff (@varethane) - she/they, chirault.sevensmith.net wychwoodcomic.com

Rae Baade - they/them, https://empyreancomic.com

Star Prichard - she/her, https://thestarfishface.com/ https://castoff-comic.com/

Claire Niebergall (Clam) - she/her, https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.

Transcription

Notes:

Lead Out TEMPLATE

Host: [comment relevant to what the last person said]. Anyway, that is a roasted red pepper and goat cheese wrap, thank you so much for listening! I’ve been your host, [name], and you can check out my work at [comic title or URL].’

[Other participants repeat their names and comic titles]

Host: And well see ya later, slappers!

Transcript:

00:00.86

Varethane

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about what makes a character real, or maybe not real enough, and what that means when you're engaging with them as a reader. I'm Varethane, my pronouns are she/they, and I make the webcomics Wychwood and Chirault.

00:20.56

Claire

I'm Claire, also known as Clam, my pronouns are she/her. I make the webcomic Phantomarine.

00:27.48

Rae

And I'm Rae, my pronouns are they/them, and I make the webcomics On Empyrean High and Overlord of Ravenfell.

00:36.18

Star

And I'm Star, I use she/her pronouns, and my webcomic is Castoff.

00:41.91

Varethane

So we all love creating characters. I know I'm speaking for myself here, but possibly for a lot of other folks that the characters are kind of what make me get really excited about my comic.

00:53.34

Varethane

And while you're writing them, we want to make them feel as if they could be real people. But at the end of the day, characters are not actually real people. They act as tools to help us tell our stories, but still hopefully can come across as having a three-dimensional history and personality and be a complex person.

01:13.78

Varethane

So today we wanted to talk about how to interpret characters as storytelling tools and what to do if your audience gets a little too invested and just kind of talk about the subject overall because… it's interesting, there's some interesting stuff here! So I'm going to go into the first question, which is: how important is it to you to figure out the purpose of your characters in the narrative?

01:39.42

Varethane

And that'll be Clam first.

01:42.22

Claire

Okay. I think I run into this problem where I feel bad because I actually try to think about characters as tools first versus like, what's their personality? What do they look like? Like I—there's a few of my characters that have kind of sprung whole cloth from my brain as like, this is a real person and I know exactly how they talk and I know what they're all about. And I know, I already know why they're there in the story, but there's more of them where I'm like, I don't know everything about you yet, but I know why you're here.

02:17.21

Claire

And I think there's—it doesn't happen too often, but I do notice some shows, movies, games, even, where sometimes I look at a character, I'm like, why are you here? Like, I might like you, I might realize that the author really likes you and clearly, like, wants you to be here. But at the end of the story, I kind of look back and I'm like, I don't know what purpose you served. Like, what were you trying to say? How did you reflect on the theme? What were you kind of in relation to the other characters? I think there's plenty of room sometimes for just a character for character's sake because you just think that this would be fun or you think that it's appropriate. But even that is itself a tool. Like having fun with a character and creating them as...kind of way to spice up the story is itself a tool. So I don't know. I think a lot about like starting from the storytelling viewpoint of like, why do I want this character here? But then as a story goes on, like every character that I've made that started that way has blossomed into something else, something more complex as the story went on. So I think, I don't know, I find it kind of a nice starting point to be like, what is your purpose? What do I want you to be? And how can I get you to be that, but then also a little bit more?

03:51.84

Varethane

Yeah, it can be an interesting concept because there's definitely a balance between figuring out their utility for the story, but also making them still feel like you have that passion and personality and investment. And sometimes these things might jar up against each other. Before I get going on this too much, let's hear Rae's answer.

04:17.24

Rae

So for me, I do think it's very important to figure out what the purpose of your characters are in your narrative. A lot of my characters stem from RPs, so sometimes I have to pare them down to fit the narrative, or even sometimes I cut them depending on how much of my story is based off of the original roleplay. So I'll often look at it and go, you know, this is kind of bogging down the story. I need to cut this entire character from here because they aren't really contributing in other ways for what I want to be the main story. So I definitely think it's important in that aspect. And also you don't really want to be like those multi-season shounen where certain characters finish their purpose, but they kind of just hang around there and cheer on the main character, but don't really do much else.

05:13.56

Rae

I do actually find it more frustrating when a character hangs around with nothing to do rather than being written out of the story some way. Because there's really nothing wrong with having certain characters take a backseat in the narrative once they've fulfilled their purpose.

05:36.60

Varethane

Yeah, I feel like we've all read stories like that in a lot of mainstream media and manga tends to be awful for it because I think a lot of the publishers of those types of stories that are marketed to such a huge—like they expect big numbers from those series and they'll run those polls with the readership to determine what the favorite characters are, like basically a popularity contest among the cast of the story. And whoever wins it, they get to stick around for the next season or the next arc or the next batch of chapters. But sometimes, like, what if a character that is not the author's favorite wins the popularity contest and now they have to keep them around, but they don't actually...

06:19.31

Varethane

like them that much. So they're just kind of there. They're still in the story, but they don't have anything to do. It's definitely a thing that can happen. I see it and it's very frustrating.

06:32.19

Claire

That's my nightmare.

06:33.73

Varethane

I know, right?

06:37.62

Varethane

But yeah, characters as marketing tools is definitely one way in which they can fulfill utility. I got more thoughts on that one, but I'm going to let Star answer first.

06:48.86

Star

Yeah, so I actually have kind of a fun story for this one because I would say that most of my characters, not just in Castoff, but also just in general, are created as like, I have a purpose for them first. I don't necessarily remember every single character. Okay, Vector, my main character, actually was...

07:14.22

Star

He came to me in a dream, quite literally. I still cringe a little bit telling that story, but so obvious...

07:19.92

Varethane

That's amazing.

07:20.79

Star

Thank you I fever dream in college after a color theory class. Anyway... But yeah, so it's like I just—this Blorbo descended from the heavens and was like, “Make a webcomic about me.”

07:32.51

Star

And I was like, “Give me like four years.”

07:35.38

Varethane

Yes, master.

07:35.61

Star

And so, you know, sometimes that happens. And I have other characters where it's like, okay, I need this character—this character needs someone to talk to in this scene. And so I just make up a weird little dude.

07:53.05

Star

And then what usually happens nine times out of 10 is that weird little dude will evolve into this whole actual character. Like I'll have just like, I need you for one scene. And they're like, what if I was one of your favorite characters actually? And I'm like, Oh no. Well now I have to keep you around because you've entered Blorbo status.

08:13.78

Star

I think the weirdest way a character has ever wormed their way into a story...

08:23.65

Star

Actually, if we go really far back, this has happened multiple times in Castoff. Because the thing was, when I was first developing Castoff, I had another webcomic going at the time. And Castoff's storyline was, I made up this character, and they're too weird and fantastic like fantasy to fit in my current like modern day setting webcomic. So I'm going to put them in this side project that I've been working on forever and I'll find a spot for them. And if I can't, I'll put them somewhere else. And that's how Frankie made it into the story.

08:57.17

Star

One of like, I would say probably the most popular character in the comic came from an art collaboration I did with friends. Have you guys ever done the thing where you like—one person sketches a character and then one person inks it and then one person draws it and you like go around in a circle and you do that?

09:18.39

Star

Frankie came from one of those.

09:18.66

Rae

Yep.

09:20.99

Star

I just drew this character with like this weird clock robot eye. And then I was like, I like him. I'm going to keep him. And I just yeeted him into the story and I was like, I'll find a use for you.

09:31.47

Star

And now he is legitimately one of the most popular characters in the comic. I don't control this.

09:38.74

Varethane

Whomst among us does?

09:38.84

Star

So the answer is, it's like a 50-50 shot. Sometimes it's important. Sometimes I just catch Blorbo disease and I'm like, well, you live here now. I will find a use for you.

09:50.52

Rae

A lot of my characters, since they were from RPs, also came like, well, I need my character to talk to this person. And then suddenly they have a personality, so I have to name them.

10:03.13

Rae

And then I have to draw them.

10:05.78

Star

Well, if you're gonna name them, then you gotta do this thing.

10:06.29

Rae

Yeah, right.

10:08.50

Star

And if you're gonna do this thing, then you might as well, like, do that thing. you might as well...

10:11.51

Varethane

It's like when you take home a stray, you've named it. It's too late.

10:14.55

Rae

Yeah.

10:14.94

Star

You got attached.

10:15.66

Rae

The cat distribution services. Sometimes there's just a Blorbo distribution service.

10:21.85

Star

Yes!

10:25.47

Varethane

The Blorbo adopts you. You don't have a choice.

10:29.34

Star

This is what Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends was about.

10:32.48

Varethane

Oh god.

10:36.65

Varethane

For my own stuff, um I think that that whole thing actually—similar to Ray, a lot of my characters started in some way from some kind of like, if not RP, something kind of adjacent to it, like playing... Some of them come all the way back from playing pretend in elementary school and just getting these little seeds, seeds of characters who evolved in a totally organic setting where there was no real plan. Like there wasn't a framework of story to put them into. They were just kind of like, oh, I have this little person just kind of at the back of my mind who I think, you know, well, here's what their personality is like and here's kind of what they look like, and they have a name.

11:22.02

Varethane

And I would just kind of pull them out when I was hanging out with other people. The main duo in Chirault evolved out of a paint chat RP where I would draw a character on the screen and then other people would interact with them and poke them, bother them and draw bugs beside them. And then like, oops, turns out that they're afraid of bugs. That's where Kieran's fear of bugs came from fundamentally,

11:45.47

Varethane

is because people were interacting with this guy in a paint chat setting. There was no utility, there's no plot that I was trying to put this character into initially. And then I was like, but I like this guy. I like this dynamic that I've kind of built up with these other interactions. So maybe I'll think of a way that I could put them into a story. And I started constructing Chirault.

12:07.38

Varethane

And I feel like the beginning of a lot of my story starts that way, where I'm sort of seeing them more as people and not thinking about them as tools in a narrative. But then the more elaborate the story gets,

12:21.39

Varethane

it needs more characters. And I mean, like you guys were saying, like, well, they need somebody to talk to in this scene or somebody has to come and initiate this next plot device. Because if they're just alone in a room with nobody to talk to, that's not a story. They need things to do, which probably includes other people.

12:40.10

Varethane

And a lot—some of those other people would enter the story as tools and then slowly get more and more fleshed out. But I feel like the farther along in the story

12:51.15

Varethane

it gets, the further the needle swings towards the tool side of it. A character introduced in like chapter three is more likely to be one of the Blorbos who's been repurposed for it or someone who I kind of put in and I'm like, I'm going to leave room for this person to evolve organically.

13:09.37

Varethane

But the characters who get introduced in like chapter 15 or 16, I need to have a plan at that point. I'm entering like the main thrust of the plot. I'm starting to think about how I'm going to end this thing. And any piece that I put into that puzzle, which is already huge and sprawling, I can't let it— can't let it grow too much.

13:28.96

Varethane

Otherwise, it's just going to explode the story and add another hundred pages to it. And so I'm a lot more strict with those later characters who are definitely much more introduced to be a—to serve a function.

13:45.05

Rae

How many hundreds of pages have you added to your stories, Thane?

13:50.99

Varethane

Redacted. It's a multiple number.

13:56.04

Claire

A few hundred

13:57.36

Star

What's 100 pages? What could it hurt?

14:00.48

Varethane

You know, it's just 100 pages. a big deal.

14:02.95

Star

What's the harm?

14:04.74

Star

It's fine. Do it for your blorbos.

14:07.97

Varethane

I won't say how much was added over my initial plan because I didn't really have a concrete picture of how long Chirault was going to be when I started, but it clocked in 1267 pages.

14:19.61

Varethane

And Wychwood is at about 700 right now with probably another 500 to go. And I did plan on having that one be like 500 pages when I started. I don't know what I was thinking. I don't think my brain works that way.

14:33.26

Varethane

I can't make things short.

14:36.35

Star

What's a short story? I've never seen one before.

14:39.47

Varethane

Yep.

14:39.83

Star

I don't think they exist.

14:40.19

Varethane

Yep. Oh, there is one other thing that I did want to mention before I go into the next question, um which is that the characters who do get introduced, regardless of whether they're a tool or whether they're people, I feel like there still has to be some seed of passion to them if they're not just going to be like they appear for one scene if they're a part of the main cast. And there's one example of a character who fails kind of on both metrics, which is unfortunately the main character of Final Fantasy XII, Vaughn.

15:18.00

Varethane

And the story of that game's production was a little bit troubled. It was sort of written by a whole bunch of committees who all had different ideas of where they wanted the plot to go. And each of those kind of committees, they had their favorite characters. So they would get a lot of development and investment. And so you had some really strong characters in the primary cast.

15:39.67

Varethane

But then the executives of the company itself needed to have a marketable teenager for the audience to latch on to because that was the target demographic of the game. And they required that the writers add a young, relatable protagonist to be the figurehead of the whole project. And then the trouble was, like, they did—the developers, the creators did it, they had to.

16:05.13

Varethane

But I feel like you can kind of tell that none of them had a plan for this character. So they're just, they're there the whole time. They have a little bit of a setup connecting them to the plot very loosely. But then no further development. And so they're the main character, but they feel like a footnote, like they could just exist in the background of a scene. And I feel like that's a situation that I would really want to avoid. Like, so regardless of what the character is for, if you have to force them in, it's probably going to be a problem.

16:37.94

Claire

My favorite redeemed version of a character like that is actually one that I know you will absolutely be like, yes, yes, that one. And it's Enzo Matrix from Reboot.

16:47.86

Varethane

Yes, yes!

16:47.93

Claire

I know they, like, the original story is they had to put in like a kid character. This is a Saturday morning cartoon. There are adult characters that are like the heroes and the villains, but the producers were very specific.

17:02.16

Claire

They're like, we need a kid character that's like the focal point for the audience because, of course, the kids aren't looking at the adults being like, they're so cool. They need like a kid to tell them to look at the adults and think that they're cool for some reason.

17:15.90

Claire

And so like, Enzo, if you've never seen Reboot, Enzo starts out as this super hyperactive kid. He's super into everything. He's excited.

17:24.47

Varethane

It's like the plucky little brother.

17:24.82

Claire

Yeah, he's the plucky little brother. But as the show goes on, like, the things that they do with this character are so interesting and so fascinating. And they take what was originally like a studio mandate and they make him into one of the most complex characters on the show.

17:46.68

Claire

They hurt him like emotionally. And then he grows from that. And then he has to grow even more from the growing of that. Like he's—there's so many layers to just one character that originally was just like, you have to include this. And I'm so happy that they did that in the end.

18:08.97

Star

I've never seen this show, and so hearing out of context, they took this child and they hurt him and just sounding so excited about that.

18:18.48

Star

I was like, whoa, what's going on up there?

18:20.57

Claire

I promise I promise, I promise it's actually like, it's really good.

18:24.72

Varethane

It's really good. Time travel is involved.

18:26.84

Claire

Yes, time travel is involved.

18:30.04

Star

I see.

18:31.19

Varethane

So I guess I guess kind of the moral of this story, I mean, the whole idea of a studio mandate is not something that most webcomic artists are going to have to be dealing with, generally by virtue of like all of us are doing this kind of on our own impetus. But I think there are—sometimes the pressure of trying to make something that will become popular. It is possible that people might feel like they need to have something shaped like this in the story in order to become popular, and I feel like, just make sure that you like the thing if you're going to do anything like that.

19:07.32

Rae

So what you're saying I shouldn't do a redeemed villainous

19:11.22

Varethane

I mean if you really want that, if you love it, if you love it and want to do it, then do it.

19:17.39

Varethane

But if you don't love it and you feel like you have to do it just because it's going to be popular, I don't know, maybe think about that one.

19:26.81

Varethane

So I do want to start getting into the next question, which is, has there been a character in your work or in another work that you love where you think readers treat their behavior as if they're real? And what do people think of them?

19:43.19

Varethane

And why do you think that that is? I'm going to toss this one over to Clam.

19:47.29

Claire

Yes, yes, I have those. And it's simultaneously like, it's an honor to have readers become that invested in a character.

20:01.02

Claire

But also, there have been a couple of occasions where I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. whoa whoa whoa whoa, like, I'm very glad that you are thinking this deeply and feeling this deeply about what this character is doing. But I also—I want to gently take your hand and like, let's go get a coffee. Let's go calm down. Like this, this character is not real.

20:22.58

Claire

Ultimately, like, at the end of every day, these characters are not real. They represent real things. and real emotions, often ones that I've had. I think the reason that sometimes these characters do, I guess, elicit these responses is it does feel real and it comes from a real place. I've had two instances with both of my villains. One is kind of the sad, wet cat villain, and one is like the legit...

20:51.26

Claire

evil, like angry, vindictive one. And I've had such interesting responses on a couple different occasions on the moments where they really lose it. They become so emotional about their situations that they kind of break down. And it has been really interesting to see on those specific pages, like those are the ones where I get a comment where somebody gets...

21:18.97

Claire

It's like they're trying to write the rest of the character's story before I have even explained the whole thing, because they've seen a kernel of truth in that character's response that they then relate to their own experience with other people. And they're like, oh, this must be what's going on.

21:40.50

Claire

And unfortunately for me, sometimes that kind of A to B to C throughline goes in a direction that I don't intend in their head. And I can't control that. Sometimes you know, I think like, oh, did I write it wrong? Did I give the wrong impression? Oftentimes I think, from the comment itself, I usually just get the sense that this person has a history and I've unlocked that history a little bit.

22:07.86

Claire

And part of me is like, I'm amazed that that happened, but I also... I almost feel sorry because I'm like, I didn't mean to, you know, bring out this memory for you or this interpretation. like I'm just sitting here making my Barbie dolls angry, like realistically. But for you, it was something much more. So I think about it a lot where like, I love that people would interpret a character as like, this is a real person with a real emotion that I am reacting to.

22:43.16

Claire

But you also have to look back and see, you know, me doing the little you know shadow puppets on the cave wall and be like, oh, wait, like Claire's doing this. Claire is in control of this. because these characters are not real. like Maybe I should just be talking to Claire and being like, hey, what do you mean with this? Before I launch into a tirade about like, this character is, interpreting this poorly, or this character shouldn't be behaving like this, when I'm like, hang on, I have more to say.

23:11.67

Claire

Please don't go too far with it. But yeah, I don't know. I'm of two minds. I'm like, thank you for caring that much. But also, you don't need to care that much, please.

23:23.39

Varethane

It feels all too easy for people to forget that with webcomics or any serialized thing that isn't complete yet, you're only ever seeing a part of the picture, I guess, so depending on the work itself, because I see people do it with TV shows as well.

23:38.72

Varethane

Like an episode comes out and it's like, oh, this is so problematic or something like that.

23:39.00

Claire

Yes.

23:43.12

Varethane

And it's like, well, it's not done.

23:43.38

Claire

It gets explained like two weeks later and you're like, oh, but people don't apologize for jumping too far ahead. So like, I don't know.

23:53.05

Varethane

You want to be like, well, don't you feel silly now? But like, no, social media has moved on.

23:57.02

Claire

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

24:01.86

Varethane

How about you, Rae?

24:04.91

Rae

Unfortunately, I do think a lot of people tend to take characters as real people way too seriously a lot these days.

24:17.02

Rae

I do think some of it stems from purity culture and belief that your morals are reflected in the kinds of media that you read. But, you know, sadly, that's something that a lot of times just has to be cured by time. I do think that a lot of people also need to give a bit more grace in the types of stories that these characters appear in. You know, the people that always comment in a theater about for like a horror movie, “Oh, why are they going in that dark hallway? Don't they know that they're going to be murdered?” It's like, no, no, they don't. That's the kind of story that this is.

25:04.22

Rae

But I also think that treating characters as real people often especially seems to affect villains. Because you get a lot of people that just hate villains. They don't understand why people like them.

25:21.69

Rae

And a lot of people that tend to like them are people that appreciate them as narrative tools because they tend to be very active parts of the story rather than reactive and I especially appreciate them doing everything in the story in service of their goal and the people that reduced them to like oh this character is just a war criminal. It's like, yes, but he's actually giving the protagonist something to do because he's a war criminal.

25:58.07

Rae

So I definitely do think that sometimes just treating these characters as people doesn't consider the genre or their role a lot of the time.

26:15.38

Varethane

Yeah, it definitely can get awkward with certain genres too. Like, especially if readers need to like the characters in the things that they're reading, like the additional assumption would be that the person making it also has to like and agree with all the characters in it. But I think if that were the case, then the whole horror genre, especially the slasher genre, would just have to not exist.

26:40.31

Varethane

Like you can't really reconcile it with that worldview.

26:44.73

Star

Yes, I definitely have several things to say about that. But first, one of the things that I wanted to say was, I feel like as humans, we are prone to looking at something that is not human and applying human traits to it, which is one of the reasons why this happens so often.

27:02.01

Star

I mean, how often have you been like taking a walk and you see a tree and there's like just... the perfect shape of just like some knots in the tree and it looks like a face. It's just, it's literally three circles and you and your brain assign it a face and say, oh, it's a character now.

27:21.14

Rae

Like the people that put googly eyes on their Roombas and call it pet names and then they get sad when they get stuck.

27:29.78

Star

Yeah, Divine Beast Va-Roomba.

27:30.36

Varethane

I do love those photos.

27:34.19

Star

That's what mine is called. He's been broken for several months.

27:37.04

Claire

That's amazing.

27:37.29

Rae

Poor Roomba.

27:37.33

Varethane

Beautiful.

27:38.21

Rae

Oh, wait, no, I'm characterizing him now.

27:40.02

Star

Yeah, exactly. You've done it. You've done the thing. You just did. Do you see? We've done a live demonstration for you, podcast listener. But yeah, just kind of feeding off what Thane says is that sometimes people just, they see a character in a work who was designed as a tool. They were designed to tell a story. And maybe the tool is not always morally correct. Maybe the villain character needs to do bad things in order to be a villain. Now that on its own is not necessarily a bad thing because that's how the story happens is that bad things happen. Protagonist, you know, in general wants to set out to stop the bad thing from happening. That can be any scale from like massive save the world fantasy to just more nuanced small stuff is like, “Oh, my, this guy stole my friend's dog and I have to go get it back.” That kind of thing.

28:36.57

Star

The problem will come in, and I have had people do this to me many times, where they see a villain or even just like a character who's not a nice person or a good person or like a morally okay person.

28:52.98

Star

They have nuance, they have flaws. And they say, wow, that person in this story just did a bad thing? That means that the person who made them is okay with people doing this bad thing, and then I get called a war criminal over something that happened in my webcomic, and I'm like, no, we've gone too far.

29:14.32

Star

I need you to turn around and figure out what road you turn down, because this is not the right one that you're supposed to be on. Just... just go away this has happened

29:23.21

Rae

But Star, you drew all those dead people. They're dead now.

29:29.75

Claire

We are dragging you to the Hague as we speak. You will stand trial.

29:36.34

Star

No, I’ll have you know I'm gonna sit, thanks. But no, like just one example of this is, I have a character in Castoff who is barely a character. I did not even give this guy a name. He is just cart guy to me. And his whole purpose in the storyline is to drive a cart that gets the characters from point A to point B and drop some exposition, be a douchebag, and then get the shit kicked out of him. Like that is the end of his character arc is he's an asshole. And then he gets the shit beat out of him. And I've had people just, you know, like make memes with this character. Cause they think he's just like, he's so shallow. He's fun to dunk on.

30:24.00

Star

And I have gotten anonymous hate comments from people being like, f—ing, wow. I can't believe that Star put this character in her comic. That must mean that she is also racist. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

30:37.02

Star

Did you not get that this is not a character we are supposed to be rooting for? Did you need me to show him getting killed on screen to make sure that you understand I'm not on his side?

30:51.33

Star

Like, what? Where? How?

30:53.40

Rae

One of the interesting things I've always found about a lot of these feelings for these characters... is they often only take like this one certain part of their personality and extrapolate from it.

31:10.81

Rae

And sometimes they don't even take the overall character development of the character in. They just take their initial first impression of it and run with that. Which I've seen it with some characters like in Final Fantasy where, oh, they're an asshole at first, but then they kind of sacrifice themselves for the greater good or something like that. But people are still going, oh, why do you like that character? He just did this one thing that ruined everything. And it's like,

31:50.46

Rae

because I like the complete arc of his character. Not just that one tiny bit where he's being a jerk.

32:02.42

Star

But he committed war crimes onscreen. That means you like war criminals.

32:06.84

Rae

Oh I guess I do, oops.

32:10.83

Star

And I will now judge you for it.

32:11.03

Varethane

Oops.

32:12.40

Star

Forever. And I will send you anonymous hate messages on Tumblr.com.

32:17.98

Varethane

Man, I feel like most of my thoughts on this subject have been pretty amply covered by everything else. But I will say that the idea that every character in a story needs to be a role model or to embody good behavior or practices or thought or whatever is just not something that I think should be applied to media that's not aimed explicitly at children.

32:43.64

Varethane

That sort of stuff is suitable for stuff aimed at a very young audience. But we should expect more from adult or older teen readers. They can think about what they're reading. They can interpret things.

32:56.92

Varethane

They should have critical thinking at that point and can be able to draw their own conclusions.

33:04.73

Star

And once you reach a certain age, you too will start to enjoy the messy mother—. And you will have fun with them and watch them screw up and be like, haha, he's just like me.

33:16.29

Varethane

But fictional!

33:17.14

Rae

Fictional.

33:17.70

Star

But fictional!

33:20.22

Claire

I just wonder how people like—I imagine the kind of people that want every character to be perfect. They must be so bored. They must reach a day where something goes off in their head and they're like, every character is the same.

33:34.36

Claire

Every character is like this perfect cocoa melon, like child of perfection. Like where is the juice?

33:41.86

Varethane

Sanitized and pure.

33:42.72

Claire

Yeah.

33:45.46

Rae

Like, I think some of it might be them wanting to get away from everything bad in the world kind of thing.

33:51.86

Claire

Yeah.

33:53.39

Rae

I've noticed cozy fantasy and stuff like that has become very, very common right now. And that's probably because... A lot of people are tired of it.

34:04.31

Rae

But at the same time, I don't know. I've never been one to stick with one kind of story. Sometimes I will want, you know, my happy brain rot that doesn't actually have any characters that are developing and turn into like a giant kaiju and eat people or something.

34:23.44

Rae

But all for fun. But sometimes I want stuff that's dark because there's that catharsis in it. But I don't know, yea.

34:37.74

Varethane

It's a big world and people like different things. Imagine that.

34:42.62

Rae

Imagine that. Yeah, it's the people that can't comprehend that people like different things my kind of makes me—yeah.

34:49.94

Varethane

Yes, definitely. So the third question that I've got for you guys is what are some pitfalls that you see writers fall into when they treat characters too much like people in their story?

35:03.84

Varethane

Start with Clam.

35:05.30

Claire

I can speak to my very early writing scenarios. Like when I was like, eight to 12 years old and I had like these forever stories that just kept going on and on that I was writing and I never thought about characters as pieces in a puzzle or in a chess game or anything like that. What I did was, I just grabbed like character archetypes that I liked from other shows and other

35:36.31

Claire

movies and games. And I was like, I like you as a character. I think you're cool. You're going in my story. And I—it was, it was a great like sandbox to play in until I started realizing like, why are they here?

35:52.63

Claire

Why are they here apart from me just thinking they're cool or their design is awesome or I like their powers or whatever. And I think it's something that I pick up on in, I guess, specifically webcomics nowadays if I read them where, like,

36:10.42

Claire

I love seeing webcomics where clearly somebody has made these characters and put them in a webcomic because they think that they're the coolest character ever. Or like, you know, oh, this character is so hot. I drew a hot guy. And now, like, I have to put him in this comic and I have to make him kiss somebody. Like, I see that and I'm like, I understand. I see you.

36:32.79

Claire

I totally get it. But I think when you get a cast that's just characters that you think are cool, and then you don't know exactly what they're doing. They're just kind of going through a world that you make that you also think is cool for whatever reason. And like, a lot of it just kind of comes down to, what moves are these game pieces making? Are they just on the page, being awesome, and you're drawing them and you think like, I just love this character. Or are you thinking like, where is this character starting? Where do you want them to get?

37:11.61

Claire

How are they going to get there? How do they bounce off of the other characters in this world? It's one thing to kind of do it like D&D, where everybody brings a character to, you know, a new campaign.

37:25.69

Claire

I think the ones where you don't have like a session zero where it's like, what is the mood of this story going to be? Where everybody kind of understands what their role is, how they might tie into what the overall vibe of the campaign is. You get a lot of like crazy stuff just kind of thrown together because people think it's cool.

37:44.41

Claire

And I think I noticed that in webcomics sometimes where... I think it's great for like a first draft of a webcomic where you're just trying stuff and you're playing with these characters that you think are just awesome. But then when—I feel like there's a lot of webcomics where I see that moment where the author is like,

38:03.99

Claire

I don't know what else they are. I don't know what they are beyond being cool. And then sometimes they either abandon the comic or they twist it into something new or they restart it.

38:17.37

Claire

But it basically is like, they've played with these cool archetypes enough where they're like, I know what kind of story I want to be telling with these characters. And I think—

38:29.17

Claire

Everybody kind of has to go through that phase where they're like, what am I doing? Like, I've made this thing. What is it for? But I think that's where it can get really cool and really beautiful being like, I like these kinds of characters.

38:44.38

Claire

What sort of stories are they good in? So yeah, it's something that I went through. I see it in other stories. I think it's—I think it's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it's just a starting point.

38:58.09

Varethane

It's like ingredients in food in a way, like you can find you can really like two separate sets of ingredients, but being able to recognize when they will pair well with each other and when they won't really maybe go together.

39:00.80

Claire

Yeah.

39:11.26

Varethane

Maybe I don't want ham and cheese in my chocolate chip cookie. I want it in a different kind of pastry.

39:19.30

Claire

Well, you have to be adventurous sometimes, but no, I think—exactly.

39:26.39

Star

Spoken like someone who's never made chocolate chip and bacon cookies.

39:30.78

Varethane

I specifically said ham and cheese. Bacon is a totally different story.

39:33.08

Star

Him is like one step away from bacon. And what is cheese if not milk is what you put cookies in? Checkmate.

39:43.74

Varethane

Right, so I expect you to make some ham and cheese and chocolate chip cookies and then mail them to me.

39:44.07

Claire

She's got a point.

40:06.80

Star

I'm just, I want cookies now.

40:09.24

Rae

With ham?

40:09.38

Varethane

Me too. Go straight to the kitchen after this.

40:13.69

Star

Oh, yes. I've got string cheese waiting for me. I'm going to put it in a cookie.

40:17.14

Varethane

You put it in a cookie.

40:20.69

Rae

My god.

40:25.35

Star

Anyway, back on topic.

40:29.62

Rae

So for me, I think a lot of the pitfalls that people fall into is not giving their character enough to do and not bouncing off of the other characters a lot because they have these, all these cool characters. They're individually cool, but a lot of times they don't think about how they interact with each other.

40:56.21

Rae

And I think—that just makes me think of this one guy who—oh, he roleplayed such a cool character, but when it came to interacting with other ones, he just sat in a corner and just, you know, glowered at everyone, and that was essentially what he what he did, because he was a really big fan of all those fantasy stories of lone wolf characters. So when it came to actually role-playing one of those, he didn't put too much thought into giving his character motivation enough to interact with other people in a roleplay.

41:42.58

Rae

And another thing that I think a lot of people fall into when they view characters a bit too much as real people and don't consider the narrative is that they're really afraid of making their character be wrong or make mistakes or do bad things when honestly a lot of these are the best opportunities for your characters to grow.

42:12.38

Rae

So, often these kinds of journeys are actually what makes a lot of characters enjoyable, but they can't do that if you won't allow them to essentially have a messy moment.

42:28.17

Varethane

Yeah, I think that thing that you were—that's definitely a great point about these things. I feel like there's a lot of stories out there where people have written in a character who they relate to on a personal level, who might be, like, unmotivated and depressed and have like this constellation of personality traits that are

42:49.61

Varethane

like a real person, they feel very relatable. But with a character like that, you have to really go out of your way as the author to constantly come up with things for them to be doing. And at a certain point to keep the story interesting, it's going to get very difficult and you're going to have a hard time getting the readers to like this character. Even if they relate to them, they might not be a great choice for a protagonist of a story if they're not active in the plot.

43:15.80

Varethane

And even if it might be realistic that way, like, this is like a real person. They're fundamentally not a real person. They're a fictional character in a story and you have to challenge them like a fictional character and not like a real person.

43:32.82

Rae

You can't have them sitting in the corner for the entire story. Even if they want to, they still need to get in the robot.

43:42.71

Varethane

At some point, yes, the robot—the robot's got to come here.

43:43.61

Rae

At some point, yes.

43:45.67

Varethane

This is my real lesson. Put a robot in there.

43:48.54

Rae

Put a robot in there. And make your protagonist get in it.

43:50.11

Star

And then put a guy in that robot. Yeah.

43:54.96

Varethane

How about you, Star?

43:55.06

Star

Yeah, so I—for me, Gosh, I'm trying to think of like—I can't think of any specific examples, but I know that I've definitely seen this.

44:05.85

Star

And I feel like I definitely probably used to do this with some of my earlier writings, like when I was a wee bab that never made it onto the internet. Thank God. Where I'm going to call it world building disease, but with characters, where it's like, you write so much like interesting, crazy—you write every single thing about a character. You write their entire backstory. You fleshed out like every single human being that they have ever interacted with. And you just fall so in love with them. And you want everyone who reads your story to know everything about this character that you do. And then it's just, it's too much. And what happens is sometimes people will do that with every character in their story. And it's like, I can't start my webcomic. I don't know what my MC's favorite color is. I have to go back to the drawing board right now. And they just, they want these characters to be like...

45:10.28

Star

grounded, realistic people so badly, they're focusing on the wrong thing, I feel, where it's like you don't need to know every single thing about your character for them to feel real and interesting to an audience. And, you know, if you're just making characters...

45:29.69

Star

for funsies for them to live in your head and for you to like throw metaphysical dodgeballs at them and see what happens, then that's one thing. But you're listening to a webcomics podcast and you're 45 minutes-ish into this episode. So I assume if you've listened this far, you're interested in making a comic with that Blorbo McBorboson at some point and just...

45:52.66

Star

Your audience does not need to know every single thing. You are giving your story character bloat when you have 20 plus main characters and most of the story is them trauma dumping on each other.

46:07.06

Star

Which I feel, like I said— nothing super recently, but I do feel like I have definitely seen this and I'm just like, I am not interested in this story, please.

46:21.02

Rae

This was actually one of the problems I had with my um original comic because it was based off of a roleplay. And oh my gosh.

46:34.14

Rae

One of the people that I roleplayed with just loved having their character trauma dump on everything.

46:40.91

Star

oof

46:42.14

Rae

Everywhere. And he was such a sad, wet cat that... he didn't even have the motivation to do anything about it. And I'm just like, that's not a story, though. How am I supposed to fit him in the story? So I had to tone that back down a lot because, you know, he is a narrative tool, not a character. I mean, not a person because—he had a square shape trying to go in a round hole kind of thing that just didn't fit the story.

47:23.19

Claire

I'm imagining a webcomic that's just the author describing their therapy sessions. And it's just like, there's no story. It's just, I'm just telling you my feelings. I'm telling you them for 10 chapters at a time. Then maybe something happens.

47:38.58

Claire

Then we're back to therapy. And it's like, no, this is not, a this is not a story. This is a meditation. Like these can both exist.

47:46.71

Rae

Sometimes that can be cathartic, but it might not find an audience.

47:53.50

Star

I was going to make a self-deprecating joke is that this is what the pilot of Castoff was like.

47:58.04

Claire

Oh, do tell.

47:59.78

Varethane

Aww.

47:59.96

Star

The very, very first try at Castoff that I wrote for I wrote a one-shot that ended in a cliffhanger that was basically chapter one for a school anthology. And it was basically just...

48:17.24

Star

Like, the sequence of events was very similar to what the final version ended up being, like the one you can read online now, but it was basically just new person walks into Vector's life. He spends, like, 12 pages trauma dumping on a stranger.

48:34.81

Star

And it's like, I look back on this and I'm like, why am I here? I'm in hell.

48:41.94

Rae

Sometimes you need to get that part out, just get it out and then focus on the story/

48:49.38

Star

But see, the problem is, the problem is that my freaking readers like to fancy themselves a little bit of Sherlock Holmes, and they go digging for my art that's like 15 years old, and they post them on the Discord for everyone to see, and it's like they're showing my skivvies to everyone, and I'm like, no, put that back from where it came from or so help me.

49:11.36

Varethane

Uh-oh.

49:12.28

Rae

Oh no!

49:12.96

Claire

Must go on the Pepe Silvia wall. Everything.

49:14.74

Star

They've like they've like found my sketch dumps that I posted to DeviantArt in 2007. Those drawings are older than some of the people in my Discord, and they're just posting them in there being like, wow, look at Star’s Old Art, smiley face, and I'm like, get that shit out of here right now.

49:34.84

Star

Get that shit out of here!

49:36.89

Rae

Do not perceive me.

49:40.12

Star

There's part of me that... Okay, I'm not gonna say, oh I wish I had nuked my DeviantArt because, you know, it's an archive, it's a treasure trove, and I'm glad that I have it, but stop reminding me, random strangers in my Discord. Stop it.

49:53.91

Star

Taking your toys away.

49:56.34

Varethane

I feel like most authors have to go through some kind of a phase like that of just getting out all the id, the everything. Like, you know, that's it's the exploratory phase.

50:09.17

Varethane

You just gotta get it done and then and then move on and start honing the craft, as it were.

50:15.06

Star

You have to make bad art before you can make good art, but stop looking at the bad art!

50:20.60

Rae

I do have a question for all of you. What's your character's favorite food?

50:27.02

Star

Don't do this to me. I don't even know what my favorite food is.

50:29.59

Varethane

Cookies.

50:31.22

Star

You think I think about that shit for my Blorbos?

50:34.07

Varethane

No wait. Sandwiches.

50:36.76

Rae

Is it a ham and cheese sandwich with chocolate?

50:38.13

Varethane

No wait. No, no.

50:39.82

Star

Yeah!

50:40.69

Varethane

It's pizza. No wait. It's sushi. No wait.

50:44.31

Star

Ham and cheese cookie.

50:46.09

Varethane

It's apples.

50:46.71

Rae

You can't make a story without knowing this.

50:49.82

Claire

My favorite is when I'll do like a “ask me some questions on Tumblr” thing. And somebody is like, what is the favorite food of each of your characters? And I'm like, ugh…

50:58.55

Star

Time to make some shit up.

51:00.15

Rae

Yeah.

51:00.57

Varethane

I actually did do that.

51:01.43

Rae

I did that too when I took Tumblr asks.

51:07.59

Rae

Of course, then I get the weirdest one, like, how long does it take Razin to scoop the litter boxes of all his evil cat minions?

51:18.84

Star

Well, how long does it take?

51:21.69

Varethane

Yes, tell us. We're all sitting here with steeple fingers.

51:23.83

Star

How many cats are there?

51:24.70

Rae

I have no idea.

51:25.39

Star

How many litter boxes? You know, you have to have one litter box per cat minimum.

51:30.39

Rae

No, you're technically supposed to have one more litter box than you have cats, if I recall.

51:35.86

Star

Well, I have two cats and two bathrooms, so...

51:35.86

Claire

Yes.

51:38.23

Rae

And on each level. And he lives in an evil um overlord tower. So I don't even know how many levels that is. Oh, man, I'm bad at world building and characters.

51:47.90

Star

You don't know how many levels your evil tower is?

51:51.69

Varethane

Oh boy.

51:52.03

Star

How could you start writing a comic without knowing this critical information? My god.

51:56.79

Claire

But it does surprise people, though, because like the number of people that ask me, like, oh you must have like the tome of information on every character and like know every birthday and everything. And I'm just like, I don't know.

52:10.04

Claire

I don't.

52:10.84

Rae

I'm making this up.

52:12.40

Varethane

If it's not important in my story, if it's not a plot point, if it doesn't affect the way things are going, I don't need it.

52:21.75

Rae

My brain is empty and it is smooth.

52:24.73

Claire

It doesn't mean that you're like a bad character mom or dad. Like you're just like, I don't know. I am thinking about the characters as like, I don't know. Like, what are their video game stats?

52:38.86

Claire

I'm not thinking about beyond that. And like, maybe that's, maybe that's a clue to just be like, okay, all of these little extra things that you think that authors know and very deeply care about regarding their characters, maybe it's a sign that you don't need to care about it that much.

52:57.43

Claire

Maybe think about, what are they being used for? What is the purpose of this character? Not what is their birthday? The birthday doesn't matter.

53:08.54

Claire

I'm sorry. I don't know my character's birthday.

53:09.81

Star

It sucks.

53:10.49

Varethane

I mean, maybe if their birth date is the prophecy date, which is critical to the storyline.

53:15.98

Claire

That's fine. That's perfectly fine.

53:18.01

Rae

I mean I do know a few people that use Zodiacs as a way to guide where their characters are going to interact with other characters.

53:31.24

Claire

Ooh.

53:32.63

Rae

Kind of like how some people use the blood type going like, oh, this this type of like blood type doesn't get a get along with this one, kind of thing. But...

53:44.79

Rae

That's really just superstition that can help you brainstorm. It's not really that important.

53:57.18

Rae

And I don't even know which Zodiac my characters are. Oh, my—I'm such a bad character parent.

54:02.71

Claire

Shame! Shame!

54:03.82

Star

Shame.

54:06.04

Star

I knew... So this is something that I've done with both my webcomics where my protagonist's birthday is the day the comic started and I just... That's how I remember. And then I worked that into the story in Castoff.

54:15.74

Rae

That's a good—yeah.

54:18.51

Star

That's actually a plot point. But then I was like, they wouldn't have April in this fantasy universe. So then I had to come up with a fantasy calendar. And then while I was doing that, I'm like, yeah, f— it, we ball. I'll make birthdays for the other characters.

54:30.59

Star

That was less than a year ago.

54:33.56

Star

And I've been doing this comic for almost 11 years, and I'm just like, yeah, sure, you're a Virgo, why not?

54:39.29

Rae

Yeah, I mean, as someone who has also made my own fantasy calendar, because I was just like, but Julius Caesar didn't exist in this world, so it's not going to be called July.

54:52.36

Claire

Oh, that gets so messy so quickly, oh no.

54:52.44

Star

Exactly.

54:56.63

Varethane

I feel like this is a huge can of worms, we're going to add another half hour to this episode.

55:02.84

Star

With Castoff, I just went by farming simulator rules. There's four months and they're just named after the season and they're just long.

55:11.99

Rae

I was a nerd and I made mine 10 months like the original Roman calendar.

55:20.28

Star

Tangent!

55:21.75

Rae

Oh yes yeah. Yeah. Tangent. Okay.

55:23.54

Star

Cool tangent.

55:24.73

Rae

So that does seem like a wrap.

55:30.71

Varethane

Like a good place.

55:32.85

Star

I think so, or else we're just going to keep yap and...

55:34.78

Rae

Yes.

55:35.89

Claire

I like a good rant to end the episode.

55:37.91

Rae

Is it going to be ham and cheese with chocolate?

55:40.28

Varethane

No.

55:41.18

Rae

No? Okay.

55:41.99

Varethane

no

55:42.09

Star

Please!

55:43.44

Varethane

No.

55:43.64

Star

Please, please!

55:45.07

Varethane

I've decided this.

55:45.15

Rae

What about bacon?

55:46.49

Star

No!

55:48.09

Claire

I'm adding the cheese whiz. I'm adding the cheese whiz to the baking stuff. I am doing it.

55:51.62

Star

I'm adding salami!

55:52.21

Varethane

No, I have a favorite. Oh, man. Anyway, that is a roasted red pepper and goat cheese and maybe a little ham and cheese wrap.

56:01.44

Star

Yay!

56:03.63

Varethane

Thank you so much for listening. I've been your host, Varethane. You can check out my work at chirault.sevensmith.net or wychwoodcomic.com.

56:13.59

Claire

I have been Claire Clam. You can find my work at phantomarine.com.

56:18.46

Rae

And I've been Rae and you can find my work at empyreancomic.com and Overlord of Ravenfell on Webtoon.

56:27.54

Star

And I'm Star, and you can find my comic Castoff at castoff-comic.com.

56:34.36

Varethane

And we'll see you later, slappers.

56:38.73

Claire

I thought you were going to say salami.

56:40.43

Star

Yeah, me too.

56:42.15

Star

Slap you with the salami.

56:42.49

Varethane

Oh, I should have. You're right. I should have done that.

In this Episode:

• What types of commissions or contract work have you gotten into over the years? Tell us about it!
• What’s the difference between contract work and other ways that creators make money? What do you have to keep in mind when working for a client that is different than a project you’re doing for yourself?
• What is your advice to someone who is looking into getting more commissions or contract work?

----

Episode Release Date: March 4, 2026

Episode Credits:

Christina Major (@delphina2k) - she/her, sombulus.com

Kristen Lee (Krispy) - she/they, https://ghostjunksickness.com https://www.lunarblight.com

Bob Appavu - any, https://intothesmokecomic.com https://www.demonoftheunderground.com

----

Transcription

Krispy

Bob and Delphie, my favorites.

00:03.46

Delphina

We're going to tell everybody else you said that.

00:05.53

Krispy

Oh my god, it's being recorded!

00:07.10

Bob

Yes.

00:09.53

Delphina

Okay. Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about the various forms of commissions or contract work that webcomic creators get into. I'm Delphina, I use she/her pronouns and I make the webcomic Sombulus.

00:28.66

Krispy

And I am Krispy. I use the pronouns she/they, and I make the webcomics Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight.

00:35.90

Bob

And I'm Bob, I use any pronouns, and I make the webcomics Into the Smoke and Demon of the Underground.

00:42.78

Delphina

Excellent. Okay. So one of the biggest questions about making comics is: what roads are available to make money off of making comics? And it's a hard one to address because that answer is changing all the time. But one direction that many creators go is commissions or contract work. Contract work is specifically entering into some kind of agreement where someone is paying you for your comic related skills.

01:11.05

Delphina

It can be a simple illustration commission that you draw for somebody in a day, or it can be something long term that spans years and years. So how do you get to that kind of work? What does it look like? And what are the pros and cons around it? We're going to jump into it now. So I'm going to throw it to you, Krispy. What kinds of commissions or contract work have you gotten into over the years? Tell us about it.

01:35.60

Krispy

It's interesting because I do not. So normally, you'll see this a lot in social media circles where an artist you follow is like commissions open, they have this nice little graphic. The typical experience is that they do illustration commissions, and you'll see bust and torso and then full body and then price, price, price. And it has a variant of that. And then usually in their social media handle, they'll say commissions open if they're a commission artist. So when we talk about that, it's someone specifically getting money from their clients who request XYZ: usually original characters, fan art, and so on and so forth. In my case, my commissions are technically always open, but I never advertise them.

02:28.79

Krispy

I don't want to be on the commission hustle, is what I'm trying to avoid. And a lot of people who pay me for certain kinds of work, it's very in the know, I guess. Like people will ask, are your commissions open? And that's usually the first foot in the door with that. I don't like to advertise them openly because like I said, like I have a lot to do and it's fun to do things on the side that I don't have to kind of… not to say jump the gun with, but don't feel obligated to always take a clientele for making money, which is a massive thing.

03:11.42

Krispy

Especially when people are commission artists and that is their main income. Not that they have to take everything that they say, but you know, there is a little bit of that pressure to be like, okay, you can't get too picky if this is something that you're kind of relying on for income. My case however is... I don’t want to say unique, I feel like there's a lot of artists that do that, but I never advertise that my commissions are open because, you know, I just like being a little bit more loosey-goosey. And the kind of stuff that I usually get is a lot of… there's character stuff but actually a lot of it is development kinda stuff for people's web comics. I get a lot of like, logo commissions. And I've done some on contract too with, you know, I made a logo for a manga called God's Bane that is getting printed traditionally by a publisher. So I actually had to also sell the rights for them to use that on top of creating it.

04:15.93

Krispy

So that was pretty neat. When you're working with that stuff, it's always good to work with actual contracts in mind. Just having a paper trail and paperwork involved when your art is going to be kind of bought in that way is a really good idea. So I like to have my little work documents all squared away, especially for, you know, taxes and all that stuff. Just keeping yourself organized. The other stuff that I do is like I said, development for comics. So I do a lot of interior kind of background design for people who are building up their web comics and their world, their lore and whatnot. It's something that I really enjoy. And yeah! It's time consuming in all the best ways. And yeah, that's kind of like in the know. I also do not advertise that stuff. I don't even think I've shared any of the stuff that I've done, like the interior designs for other people's comics on any kind of social. So a lot of that stuff comes from being like in the know, connections and whatnot. So I feel like I'm a little...

05:29.18

Krispy

Again, I don't want to say unique, but it's just interesting in the position that I am in where I still get commissions, but they're like, you know, whisper. Yes.

05:39.30

Delphina

Oh my gosh. I mean, but that's, that's kind of what happened before social media existed. That like networking somebody that, you know, it's like, oh, I know somebody who does this sort of thing.

05:47.54

Krispy

Yes.

05:50.97

Delphina

So, so you reach out to them directly instead of just kind of having to do a little tap dance on blue sky or whatever the social media is of the day.

06:01.29

Delphina

So I, would say you're doing the more traditional route versus the modern way, but I'm old. That's just me.

06:10.35

Krispy

I think that makes sense though. Cause you know, someone sees a skill or an asset that they want and they're like: “Hmm, I see that this artist is proficient or whatever in this skill. I want more of it.” And I think that that is so important when we talk about this episode today, I will get into it later, about understanding the skill sets that you have, and really focusing on and making that work for clients that you have, as opposed to forcing yourself into something you do not like to do. Because I see that a lot with artists who take commissions, and they hate what they're drawing, and you can see it in the art.

06:49.73

Delphina

Yeah, we're definitely going to get into that. But now I'm going to throw it to Bob, too, because I want to know Bob's experience. What types of commissions or contract work have you gotten into over the years?

07:01.57

Bob

Oh, there's been so many years. Talking about being old. I mean, yeah, like… I started out, my first job out of college was an in-house project management and art direction job. And then after I, you know I did that job for a few years, and then I left it and ended up doing freelance for that same company while also kind of expanding my freelance client base for the next… over a decade, haha.

07:33.69

Bob

And that work, it was like very corporate, a lot of IP, so a lot of licensed work. So I was working with things like Disney and Warner Brothers and Thomas Kinkade and like, Precious Moments, like all of these brands. So not everything I did was brands, but a lot of it was. So it was very corporate, very impersonal. It was work for hire. So, you know, I got to charge a lot more for it, but it meant I didn't keep any of the rights to the work I was doing. Obviously I wouldn't, I mean, like I can't keep the rights to like Mickey Mouse. So like, reasonable contract for the type of work I was doing.

08:14.17

Bob

And also a lot of NDAs. So like I couldn't share a lot of the work I was doing publicly. In terms of… Well, before I switch tracks, the nice thing about that type of work is that it's very good at funding the passion project. Like I'm fortunate in that I do make money from my webcomic work and from all my comic work, but it is just not comparable to like, you know… Design type of art, corporate design work. That's kind of where more of the money is and, like Krispy said, it's not something that I personally have ever found success drumming up on like blue sky or twitter or whatever. It was word, it was you know going through the system, it was recruiters at art school, it was having a friend who got hired first and that sort of thing.

09:08.89

Bob

In terms of work that's more in line with comics, I mostly don't do comic-related work on a freelance basis. There were a few exceptions, like I did some comic book design for a few years. And I also do have a literary agent who I, you know, I signed with her for a graphic novel idea. And she also reps me for illustration and for comic work. I was fortunate in that the graphic novel I pitched sold fairly quickly.

09:44.42

Bob

So I didn't actually get a chance to, like, take on any big comic jobs, but it's not really something that I want to do. I personally don't want to do contract comic work unless it's like coloring, or something else that doesn't require quite as much of my creative energy, just because I find that hard to juggle with my personal projects. But that is an option that's out there. You know, people get hired to draw comics, or to color comics or lettering or inking, background design as Krispy mentioned, editing. There's a ton of things you could do in comics. The one thing that I too really don't do is like your traditional internet-based commissions where you're just kind of putting up your commission sheets and getting clients that way.

10:37.56

Bob

For me, it's just... I already have the low paying work, and that's the comics. So I got to, you know, focus the freelance on the the stuff that carries me through a little more. But that's basically my background, in terms of how I fund the stuff that doesn't make quite as much.

11:00.89

Krispy

I think it's always funny because I have a VGen. So VGen is a platform for taking commissions. It's actually really, really neat. They can do it where you can kind of like fill out your menu for clients to take. It's very intuitive. It has a lot of examples when people want to take a certain style, they can leaf through that stuff. They have a progress meter. There's a bunch of stuff that you can customize so that the client and artist interaction is just very smooth. It's invite only. I got a link for it and I set it up… and it has been inactive, ever since I have set it up! For over… I think it’s almost two years.

11:47.80

Krispy

Oh, oh that's bad. Oh, god.

11:47.83

Delphina

Oh my gosh.

11:49.20

Krispy

Anyway! So I guess almost two years now, because I keep thinking about that. I keep thinking like exactly you said, Bob, with the low paying work with the passion projects that we have.

12:03.34

Krispy

I want to save my energy for that. I mean, it is definitely why I have the day job to do everything else. But that is still taking my free time and energy, to do something else.

12:16.15

Krispy

It’s not that I don't want to draw for people. I always participate in art fight every year, which is one of my favorite things.

12:26.27

Bob

Oh yeah, that's fun.

12:43.78

Krispy

But yeah. It’s fun to draw for people and make their day, but, I don't know, it's it's hard when there's an expectation coming. And I know that the money that you get from that just isn't going to be as… sustainable, I'll use the word sustainable, than working for a company.

12:49.69

Delphina

Yeah, absolutely. My experience is pretty similar. I went to college for graphic design and my internship out of college was doing web design, which I had a little bit of experience with, so I got more experience. I moved on to other graphic design and I started up my comic on the side as kind of my me project. This is my spare time project.

13:25.11

Delphina

And I think it's a very similar experience to you both where like I have that passion project, I want to kind of keep that separate from like the paying work. So I've always kind of sought out, even when I was doing freelance, something that was different than that entirely. So I kind of evolved into corporate PowerPoint presentations. I take things that CEOs have and make them look like they weren't scribbled on the back of a napkin or whatever.

13:50.74

Delphina

So there is some creativity in that, but it's very much, you know, it pays the bills and I'm never going to be doing… Well, I'm not going to say never. Sometimes like I get to some weird clients and they're like, yeah, we want something creative. I'm like, hell yeah.

14:10.33

Delphina

Yeah, but I think when I was doing more full-time freelance, I did pick up a couple of jobs doing logo design for webcomic artists. And I do like doing it. I have done logos for other places, for companies and for organizations. And there's something special to me about logos for webcomic artists specifically because we're all visual. I can like, read your comic. I can see the art. I can get the vibes…

14:48.48

Delphina

Versus like a company that doesn't exist yet, and they're throwing things at me like: well, we're synergistic, and we're the technological wave of the future. And I'm like, I have no idea what any of those buzzwords mean, but I can read this comic and I can see, oh, OK, it's romance. It's got this kind of magic element.

15:05.03

Delphina

And so I have done a couple of logos for various creators over the years, and i've done print layout work when people are looking to print their books and stuff and they don't have experience with Affinity or InDesign or whatever. That was something that I learned to do in school. So that was something that was very easy for me to pick up in various contexts to help people out. And those are nice little projects because they don't take too long. They're not taking too much time away from my passion project. And i do want to say that I’ve hired people on a contract basis before to help out when I’ve been a little busy and so people have helped me out with flatting, with colors, with my website. And these are all things that I know how to do but I just didn't have the time that month or whatever, and I had more money than time. So like, okay, fine.

16:07.35

Delphina

I'll help out my community. I'll pass a few dollars around. Somebody can use that money, and then I can get my thing done that I want to get done. So that's been a pretty positive experience for me. But similarly, I don't put my work out there. I don't have any little commission sheets, it's all kind of been word of mouth. And I do feel like that helps filter out some of the really random stuff or the more demanding clients, because you kind of know them, or somebody along the line is at least vouching for them enough to pass your information back and forth. And that's where I feel like a lot of problems come in, when you have this kind of open call, is that you’re like, who's vetting this person? Who are they? We don't know.

17:00.54

Bob

Yeah, that's a really good point. And like, I don't personally take the position that people shouldn't do commissions. She says, like we by chance have three people who don't do the whole commission sheets and Internet commissions thing. That doesn't mean that it's something you shouldn't do. But there is a particular challenge in trying to drum up work in the space where everyone is trying to drum up work. It's just really difficult. And it's very, you know, that's the way to get the prices driven down, you know, basement level pricing. And the people with like the 30,000, 50,000 followers, you know, it's just a different competitive environment.

17:42.94

Bob

And a lot of the a lot of people who need artists… just aren't actually online. Like a lot of those, you know, local businesses and stuff like that, you just don't find them in the same spaces as you find the people doing the commission game. So it's, you know, it's just also a matter of knowing where to find the type of client that you want.

18:02.34

Krispy

I feel like it's very akin to the going to a convention and passing around the same $5 sometimes. Like when you have those vibes.

18:08.73

Bob

Yeah, I know that feeling. Yeah. Yep. yep

18:13.05

Krispy

And it's interesting because back in the day, I used to do the commission sheets and getting clients and stuff like that. Because like, you know, when you’ve got your first kind of foray into the internets and you had access to something that could help you get some monies. It was fun to do.

18:36.70

Krispy

And, you know, I had returning clients and whatnot, but I left those days behind… I think when I started a comic. More professionally, I guess more professionally starting a comic.

18:47.19

Bob

That makes a lot of sense.

18:49.43

Delphina

Yeah, it's just interesting because it's like, comics are so much work, and they are like week after week after week. Like you're not going to get a break.

19:01.83

Delphina

So if you want to take commissions, you have to make a break in your comics. So in a lot of aspects, I do feel like they're mutually exclusive things. But some people manage it, man. And they are superheroes to me because that is not a skill I possess for sure. It's just really different trying to, like, even between like contract work and and other things where like I am making money off of my comic, but it's not doing what other people are telling me to do. It's not like a buy request thing. It's just my Patreon or selling things online or selling things at conventions that I wanted to make, that happened to be something that people want to pay me for. That's kind of a difference there.

19:23.06

Delphina

And I did want to throw that out. Like, what is the difference between those things? We've talked a little bit about it and like, what you have to keep in mind when working for a client that's different than working on a project yourself. But what other things do you think contribute to that? I'm going to throw it to Krispy.

20:10.81

Krispy

So it's interesting because when you're doing contract work, my thing is, I'm so anal for this. But when money is involved, it's like, it's go time. It's professional mode. You're required to do something for someone who has requested this of you, they sought you out or you sought them out or so on and so forth, right? There is a mutual agreement that something will be delivered at X time.

20:39.51

Krispy

And so I think that, you know, you really got to be professional about the entire exchange. You've got to be very transparent. And not that that doesn't come into your own work, but when it comes to something that you're doing yourself… Yeah, I think it's really great to set timelines and expectations. But when you have someone else in that equation, you're going to have to just make a little bit more kind of firm deadlines and requirements for yourself.

21:15.58

Krispy

Whereas… Say, you're doing your comic and you're like, well, I'm feeling a little poop today, going to miss this update, see y'all later… You can put that on social media and people are like, oh, feel better, Jessica. And, you know, so on and so forth. With a client, it is different. They can understand any kind of things that happen, I mean, life does happen, but the expectations are firmer. And you can't just be like, oh, I just wasn't feeling it today. You have taken someone's money and it can't just be, I wasn't feeling it today. And, unfortunately, I see a lot of younger artists kind of fall into this, where… I understand cause I was there, you know, you can do an art, and people like your art, which means, I could make money with art. And that's cool and exciting! But a lot of times they realize that they don't actually want to draw what they're being paid to draw. And that's their kind of first experience being like, ohhh, this is a different skill set.

22:24.54

Krispy

And I kind of am in the, I’m in the side in which: just because you can draw, you can illustrate, you can animate, whatever, does not mean that you're a fit for making or doing commissions or contract work. And I don't think that that's something that's like, a fault, or bad. But, you know, I see a lot of people who are into webcomics–and webcomics being what they are, is very passion driven– and kind of making up your own schedule, no matter what the friggin apps wish to make you update with, and their schedules. But yeah, you're on your own schedule. And then, you know, when you kind of enter that agreement with, you know, someone that is expecting you to do these things? Yeah, the expectations are going to change. And you might struggle if you're not someone who can kind of detach yourself from that.

23:23.77

Krispy

And it's interesting because I know a bunch of people who are like, I hate drawing for other people. They could draw awesome for themselves, but I know people who do not like drawing for people, other people, they despise the action of doing so. Not because it's like, ew, your OC sucks or whatever, but it's because… they don't. They just don't want to. They love their own stuff so much and that's what makes them draw their own creativity, their own kind of drive. And that's not a bad thing. That is not a bad thing. I don't think that if you're in that position, if you were in that mindset, please don't force yourself to be in a position that you hate, doing this, because you actually don't like drawing other people's ideas and stuff like that. I don't think that's a good mix. And I've seen people force themselves. It's very miserable to also share the room with them when they're complaining the whole time. So just just kind of keep that separation for your own sanity, I think.

24:50.01

Delphina

Yeah, I definitely agree. And I feel like maybe there's like a FOMO aspect to it where like, oh, everybody's taking commissions like that, that's the thing you do when you're an artist, and I should do it. And sometimes I like drawing fanart of other things. But you're right that it is a different skill set. It is a different beast.

25:11.03

Delphina

And just because you can draw a thing when you're feeling inspired to do it, that doesn't necessarily translate to a sustainable work practice either. So I think that's really important to keep in mind when you're doing this stuff. I'm going to go ahead and throw it to Bob. Like, what are the differences that you see between contract work and other ways of keeping– or you know, trying to make a living– or what do you have to keep in mind, when working for a client, that you don't have to keep in mind so much for yourself?

25:48.47

Bob

Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, I just completely agree with everything Krispy said. The element of... Well, first, like I just want to backtrack to the last thing you mentioned, which is you know the idea of some people just not enjoying the particular act of drawing other people's stuff. And I'll be honest, that's like, yeah I could be sold on drawing some specific stories and specific characters, but for the most part, the reason most of my freelance is in the realm of design is because illustration is such a difficult and labor intensive thing for me. I just, my mind doesn't really mesh as well with drawing other people's characters. Like I didn't grow up doing fan art or that sort of thing.

26:24.86

Bob

So for some, like even working with other indie creators is very different from working with like Disney. There's no soul in working with Disney. So you don't actually have to, like, you know… The relationship to the art is different. And so when I choose to work with another indie creator, I have to have the soul because I have to do a good job. And if I can't muster that up, then I don't take the job. So doing more design work makes that a little bit easier.

27:11.83

Bob

I also want to agree on everything in terms of professionalism. It is a different skill set. It's a lot of interpersonal skills. It's a lot of being organized, being on deadline, being clear in your communication, making sure your client knows what to expect from you and sticking to what you promise and being very clear and transparent if anything does go wrong.

27:36.38

Bob

On the flip side, yeah I sometimes find the mindset with freelance work to be a little bit freeing and a little a little liberating because, you know, we talk about the relationship with the work and I am a tortured artist. You know, for me, it's actually relatively easy to please a client because all you have to do is make the client happy. You know, with webcomics, you are the client because no one else has power over you.

28:11.06

Bob

You decide what success means. You decide whether you'll continue. And you might be an easy client and you might be a difficult client. And I am a more difficult client than any actual client I've ever had. So that means I have a lot of mental strife over my webcomic when I don't have that same type of mental strife over my client work. It's all very clean and very professional and very they tell me what to do and I do it, and they give me revisions and it doesn't scar me or hurt me to take those revisions because it's not the same connection to the work.

28:46.30

Bob

But, you know, I'm the tormented artist in the webcomics world and I'm just the level headed professional in freelance. And so I really like to use freelance as a mental break from those moments of self-doubt and just, the difficulty of trying to please myself as the client of my own webcomic. So freelance has actually helped me to balance my mind and just make me feel like I was doing good work, even during times when maybe my webcomic readership wasn't as vocal or when I was just feeling a lot of self-doubt about the quality of my work. It's actually kind of nice to have a freelance client just be like, hey, this looks great. And it's like, wow, that was so easy.

29:26.51

Bob

And obviously, a lot of that… you can have some pretty difficult clients, and I've been very fortunate. Like the best thing about freelance is when you get good repeat clients and you know what to expect of each other. And it just becomes more and more comfortable because you know each other's vibe, there's trust there. And that's always the goal, is just do a good enough job that you get those repeat clients.

30:01.18

Bob

And one last thing, and I'll just speak on it briefly because I kind of feel like maybe other people have some thoughts on this too. You know, commissions and contract work, it's a business. You should get paid for every single thing you do. Comics are a passion project and you can do it for free if you want. If you're doing work for someone else, you really should always get paid for it.

30:32.44

Bob

The conditions on which you're paid and that sort of thing, you know, it depends on the type of job, it depends on what you're doing. It's so variable. But one thing I would recommend is: always charge for revisions, because it's just… Just trust me, always charge for revisions.

30:44.70

Krispy

Yes. Yes. Oh my god.

30:48.76

Bob

And make sure that you're charging more when there are more revisions. It should scale because if you don't, some people will take advantage of just the endless stream of nit picky, tiny little revisions. And that's what really wears you down. So yeah I'll close out on that.

31:08.89

Delphina

Oh, gosh, it's so true. I've been in that, like, we're on revision 50 or something like that. And I'm just like, really? Really? We can't be done with this? Okay. Okay, we'll make it red. That's fine. We'll just make it red again. Okay.

31:24.28

Bob

And then back to the original color.

31:26.70

Delphina

Yeah. Can we see them both though? Like, you can tell it's like a too many cooks in the kitchen sort of situation. Everybody's going back and forth, somebody important finally said something.

31:31.84

Bob

Yeah.

31:33.14

Delphina

And yeah, that kind of thing can be frustrating, but I do agree that it is a nice mental break because a lot of times when you're doing some of this more corporate work, you're making the easiest revisions in the world. You're just changing the font from Comic Sans to Arial and, and making sure everything's, like, left aligned properly. And they come back to you and say, Oh my gosh, you saved my life.

32:03.79

Delphina

I'm like, you're welcome. It's just a nice, easy win, and it can be a very gratifying thing when people are like, I love working with you so much, you are so professional, you are so easy to work with and you really helped my idea to come to life, I want to give you more work, I'm going to tell everybody about you. And like, that's kind of how you get a freelance business or a commission-based business going, is getting these people who are really happy to work with you.

32:34.26

Delphina

And I will agree again that they don't usually come from like blue sky or the other places that I see artists hammering their stuff all the time. They've come from board gaming groups for me, they come from ex-co-workers for me, they've come from just other people who talk about me to their friends. And so you really do have to get into this habit of living your life and going to other non-artist spaces where there is an art need, because otherwise you are competing with a bunch of people who are just very professional and have the better SEO and are more findable on these networks.

33:27.93

Delphina

But there's still a lot of work to be had if you're open to working around in other spaces, so I would absolutely encourage that for sure. And just make sure that you do good work and you're good to work with, because that's going to make all the difference. And yeah, I'm just going down the list like: You do need to keep your deadlines. Being proactive about communication, because that's one of the things that…when I'm hiring people to help me out, even for little things, I really appreciate it when they're the ones reaching out to me and saying, “Hey, here's where I am, here's what I'm doing, I expect this to be done by Wednesday.” And like, great, now I have an expectation as opposed to me getting to Wednesday, I'm busy, and I'm not looking at my email the entire time. And I hired you because I'm too busy to do this work. So, like, I don't want to be chasing you. I don't want to be trying to hunt you down and figure out, hey, where's that thing?

35:16.06

Delphina

And I think also there can be this habit that people get into where they're a little too casual, where they're saying, “oh, yeah, well, you know I had a busy weekend, and I went to the zoo, and I did different things.” And like, that's nice, and maybe we're friends, and maybe I do want to hear about that. But as a client, the first thing I want to hear is, what's the status of my stuff? Like what's what's going on? And there's room to be friendly within that, but also that professionalism of being proactive and kind of keeping your client informed, and not adding more mental load to their process will always help.

35:53.08

Delphina

But yeah, I also am in a situation where if I don't want to communicate with people, I'm the only person working on my comics, so I can kind of do whatever I want. I'm not very much of a perfectionist, I think I'm a pretty easy client for myself, so that's nice. And I just do whatever I want to do on the comic side. But it's true that like, I'm not ever going to get as much money as I am with with corporate work from that. I'm never going to.

36:25.46

Delphina

It takes a lot of time, and energy, and networking to get yourself to a place where freelance is a full-time sustainable thing for you, and that's a thing that I wish more creators would understand. I feel like there is this way of seeing like all the success stories, and all the people who do cool mail clubs and big commission sorts of things, and make the big bucks. But they've worked so hard and you don't see necessarily where they started.

36:47.16

Delphina

And I think climbing up to that area, like, I don't know. Sometimes I feel like you'll know when you can do it, but if you don't know if you can do it yet, the answer is probably no.

37:03.19

Delphina

And you do need to work a little bit more on your networking and trying to get steady clients before you make a go out of making that your full-time gig. Yeah. So that's just my thoughts on it.

37:24.12

Delphina

And yeah, I'm just going to ask for some other advice. What is your advice to someone who's looking to get into more commissions or contract work? Throw it to you, Krispy.

37:25.69

Krispy

Whoa! I caught it. Well, I think one of my biggest pieces of advice is, know your limits and what you could do. Always start small when you're wanting to do stuff like that. So yes, you do have to draw baby Jonas for your aunt Mary, and see how you feel about that. If it was miserable, that might be an indication that maybe you just don't like drawing babies. But! That was still like a nice little door for that.

37:54.91

Krispy

It’s funny, I'm thinking back to The Olde Days. One of my first jobs ever was actually client work. I did illustrations for a textbook, many years ago, and it was intense in all the fun ways. It was actually very chill considering I was young, I was only 17 when that was a thing. And it was daunting in the fact that, like, there was a big amount of money that was happening and there was expectations. But I had the advantage of knowing the client, you know, through other connections.

38:31.32

Krispy

And like it was said in this episode, connections is a really, really big thing. So I think another piece of advice, as far as connections go and and kind of gauging, is to talk to other commission artists, if you want to get into this, and see what their workload is..

38:43.98

Krispy

Because like Bob said, it's kind of funny that the three of us aren't into the typical commission artwork kind of hustle that you see on social media in this. But there are people who still make it happen and they're very professional about it. Very on time, very prompt with their work that they do. So try to seek them out and chat them up! See if they want to talk about their experiences and whatnot. I don't think the first question that you ask them is, how do I get to where you are? Because that is just not going to be an answer that is cut and dry. Because your art is different from their art and so on and so forth. They have clients that will return. They have expectations and this kind of world that they have built to get to where they are. And as always, when it comes to art in this field, luck does play a lot, but paying forward has a really, really big impact in these creative communities. And that is just as simple as telling other people that a commission that you bought perhaps was incredible. The person that you worked with was amazing. And just being, again, professional can lead to more opportunities and also feed people.

40:09.33

Krispy

The personal projects that you work with because having that as one of my first kind of jobs really taught me to do deadlines, really taught me to be professional with my own work, and this is why I have as much as I have done with web comics, is because i do treat myself as like my own client sometimes. Where I'm just like, okay you have X amount of time before this, and if we're going over that we're going have to talk to the boss, which is me again, but you know.

40:38.71

Delphina

Harsh boss.

40:39.61

Krispy

So yeah, definitely. I want to say, talk to other commission artists, and also as someone who buys commissions or works with other people, pay it forward. I think that's so important, especially in the web comics community. Just really talk up your peers who have done a good job, or feel like you know would do well in another thing. Cause that's also how I got jobs is that someone said, “Hey, Krispy does this one thing. Have you tried contacting them? Cause I like the work that they do with this”. And yeah! That's how a connection was made.

41:20.47

Delphina

Absolutely. Like, I feel like there's just so much to be said for word of mouth, because you can tell people that you're awesome all you want. But when you hear from somebody else, that kind of also speaks to what the back end looks like.

41:34.91

Delphina

Like, even though you like somebody's end product, you don't necessarily know what it's going to be like to work with them. So taking that away and being able to say yes, every part of this process was great, is just golden. It's beautiful, and I think we need more of that for sure.

41:35.04

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

41:53.25

Delphina

I'm going throw it to you, Bob. Do you have any other advice for someone who's looking into getting into more commissions or contract work? They're not really sure where to start or where to go.

42:06.26

Bob

Yeah, I mean, first of all, again, just gonna mention that the paying it forward element is super important. Anytime an opportunity comes my way that I don't think I'm right for, I always make it my first priority to think about, well, who do I know who would be good for this? And who can I recommend for this?

42:19.51

Bob

Because, you know, I don't have a ton. Like, I have not yet hired other people from the community– I probably will soon, I'm going have some major flatting work I need done. But so far, I haven't had the opportunity to do that. But I do really love kind of playing matchmaker with people, with other, you know, clients and potential artists. And it's just nice when you can set up someone else to have a good outcome that way.

42:58.46

Bob

Other advice I would give... Pick up a copy of the Graphic Artists Guild's Pricing and Ethical Guidelines. It's a book, I think they also have it online. I'm not like being paid to recommend them or anything like that, it's just, it lists industry standard pricing for common freelance work.

43:23.32

Bob

This is more for if you're doing like...more traditional freelance as opposed to your internet-based commissions. But I actually think that it's good to read, even if you are looking at more of the internet commissions, just so you know what else is out there. And it lists, like, all the different industries and types of work. And it could even give you some ideas on where you might be able to branch off into.

43:48.73

Bob

It gives you the most common price ranges, and also has, like, sample contracts and advice on what you should be including in your contract and what best practices are for when you are working with the client.

44:02.10

Bob

So I definitely recommend doing that. Be in artist communities, talk to other people about their art, about their past jobs. You know, you're gonna come across people who have tons of experience, tons more experience than you. Like, I've been at this forever and I still come across people with tons more experience than me that I can learn from. And it's great to be able to pick up advice from those people.

44:34.10

Bob

And I would say finally, when you're new to contract work, I personally think it's okay to price fairly low if you are still not really working at a professional level. Like, if you're doing it kind of more on hobbyist terms, but taking a little bit of, you know, pay on the side, that's fine.

44:58.39

Bob

But if you're doing it at a professional level, I would say… Again, look at what the typical prices are, and don't go below that. Because number one, you'd be undercutting other creators and you don't want to do that, it drives prices down for everyone, it undervalues everyone's work. But also there is a psychological thing that happens where, when you charge really low, a lot of times your client sees less value in the work you do and they treat you with less respect. They're more likely to try to take advantage of you. I don't know exactly why this happens, but I've just always found that clients who see the value in your work and are willing to pay for quality, they generally will treat you better. So the first step to getting clients to treat you better, is treat yourself better and make sure you're getting paid what your work is worth.

45:51.86

Bob

Consider how many hours it's going to take you to get the job done, and that should be the baseline for like the minimum you charge. And then you can work up from there depending on what rights they want to the work, you know, if they want all-rights, or work for hire contract, then you charge a lot more for that type of work. If they want to make merchandise, you charge more for that type of work. But your baseline should always be based on how much effort and how much time it's actually going to take you. What expenses are involved? Like, do you have to buy fonts? Do you have to buy equipment or anything like that? Do you have to do research into period clothing, or do you have to look at corporate style guides? Those are all things that you charge extra for because it's included in your work.

46:41.66

Bob

The time that's spent working is not just your pen to paper time. It's also research. It's also just everything that's involved in doing the job. So make sure that you are taking all of that into account and charging for it because if you don't, you'll get underpaid, you'll burn out and you won't be able to keep doing it, and your clients won't give you the respect that you're due. So that's what I say, take good care of yourself and your clients.

47:11.42

Delphina

Absolutely. And aside from just, like, the psychological aspect of taking less money and kind of getting less respect and stuff… there's also, if you live in America, self-employment taxes, and, like…

47:25.21

Bob

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

47:26.01

Delphina

That can really bite you in the butt. Because it's like, 30% of your money is going to go to the government. So you do have to keep an eye on that. You have to save some money aside for taxes. Please talk to a tax professional because we're not tax professionals. But I just know that that has stung me in the butt so much because I think I have a lot more money than I actually do. And yeah, the answer is just charge a little bit more. And it's going to seem weird, I think, if you're coming from a place where you haven't hired artists or you don’t, like, you're not working with a– especially from corporate, because you're charging like $100 an hour and you're just like, “whoa, that's $100. That's a big number. That's three digits.” But like, once everything kind of gets sorted out, it's not actually a livable wage sometimes.

48:25.53

Delphina

So just keeping an eye on that for practical reasons, and having financial consulting where that makes sense is a good idea. I will say that as far as continuing to get work or even getting work for the first time, keeping your portfolio updated, making sure that it has the work that you want to be doing and not just everything under the sun, because I see that a lot too, when people are looking to be like, I want to be hired for anything. So I'm going to put absolutely everything on my website and… People can't tell what you specialize in necessarily, people can't tell what you want to be doing, necessarily.

49:11.96

Delphina

And so being able to be focused or even like, I don't know. I don't actually keep a portfolio so much. I just, when somebody asks me about stuff, I just have a PDF of like, “Oh yeah, here's the logos I've done. Here's the other things.” But any kind of thing that serves that purpose where you can point to one place and a client can see exactly what you can do for them is going to sell you much better on getting that job. So that’s one thing.

49:37.05

Delphina

And then, just following up with potential repeat customers. Once you've gotten those clients who are super happy to work with you and you liked working with them, you would absolutely take any other future projects. I always respond well to like, you know, just somebody says, “Hey, you know, happy new year, whatever. Just want to say, I really liked working with you. If you have any other projects for me right now, let me know because I'm open for more work”.

50:20.98

Delphina

And, you know, it can just be as casual as that, but all of a sudden now I'll remember that, oh, yeah, I do like working with this person. They did a really good job. And I wasn't thinking about it before, but now I'm thinking about all the things that I do need help with. So that's a good way to get business out of me anyway. And it's something that I've employed for other people, too, when I'm reaching out about like, hey, what's going on? Because people get busy, so just remind them that you're there. Don't be a pest about it necessarily, talk like a human. Don't send them like, I'm going to put you on my newsletter thingy and whatever. But just keep those networks open and active when you do want more work, when you're ready for more work, or just show them what you've been working on recently.

51:12.05

Delphina

Unfortunately, I think LinkedIn is sometimes good for this. So you can use that if you want to get into the more corporate stuff. But yeah! There's just lots of areas where it makes sense to keep telling people what you're doing, and make it clear that you're open and available for more work.

51:36.01

Delphina

All right! So yeah, that's about what we got for that. And we wish you all very much luck if you decide to go on this commission or art contract journey. But yeah, we'll wrap it up there. I have been Delphina and you can find my webcomic at Sombulus.com.

51:57.20

Krispy

And I'm Krispy. You can find my webcomics at ghostjunksickness.com and lunarblight.com.

52:04.15

Bob

And I've been Bob, and you can find my webcomics at intothesmokecomic.com and demonoftheunderground.com.

52:12.17

Krispy

I want to get more commissions. I love buying commissions.

52:15.89

Bob

We should just all hire each other right now. Just now.

52:18.87

Krispy

Ohhhhhh!

52:15.67

Delphina

What, do you just trade the same $5 around?

52:21.18

Bob

Yes. Pass it around in a circle. Yes.

52:24.57

Delphina

Beautiful. I love this.

52:26.31

Krispy

What would we do for a $5 commission each? That would be fun.

52:29.32

Bob

Smiley face.

52:31.51

Krispy

I would do a turkey hand.

52:33.35

Bob

Ooh, I could do a singular Canada goose.

52:38.68

Delphina

Oh, that's getting too fancy for me. Okay. We're going to stop this.

52:40.88

Bob

That's fair. Fair, fair.

In this Episode:

• Have you ever used sameface in your work, intentionally or unintentionally? Did you make a conscious choice to use it/stop using it? Tell us your experiences!
• How do you know when you have a problem? Where do we draw the line between stylistic choices about characters looking similar, and an issue we might want to address to reduce reader confusion?
• What is your advice to someone who might be worried that it’s a problem in their webcomic?

----

Episode Release Date: February 18, 2026

Episode Credits:

Christina Major (@delphina2k) - she/her, sombulus.com

Star Prichard - she/her, https://thestarfishface.com/ https://castoff-comic.com/

Claire Niebergall (Clam) - she/her, https://intothesmokecomic.com https://www.demonoftheunderground.com

----

Transcription

00:01.91

Delphina

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about making your characters distinct, versus making characters that are very similar and what you can do so readers can enjoy your comic with minimal confusion.

00:21.93

Delphina

I'm Delphina. I use she/her pronouns, and I make the webcomic Sombulus.

00:27.52

Claire

I'm Claire, also known as Clam. I make the webcomic Phantomarine. I use the pronouns she/her.

00:34.72

Bob

I'm Bob, I use any pronouns, and I make the webcomics Into the Smoke and Demon of the Underground.

00:45.06

Star

And I'm Star, she/her, and I make the comic Castoff.

00:48.94

Delphina

Woo! Okay. So here's our scenario. You're making your webcomic. Your readers are following to the best of their ability, but you're hearing the feedback that they can't tell some of your characters apart.

01:01.73

Delphina

This can be about how you draw them, the styles and colors that you're using, or there could be aspects of your writing that are affecting how they're perceived. For whatever reason, people are getting confused.

01:13.76

Delphina

So I'm just going to throw this out there. This is something we call same face, right? Where you see somebody and their character faces don't really, there's no distinction. Have you ever used that in your work intentionally or unintentionally?

01:37.26

Delphina

Did you make a conscious choice to use it or stop using it? Tell us your experiences. I'm gonna throw it to you, Clam.

01:44.90

Claire

I will say that I have a bit of it. Nobody's ever really called it out on like a bad level, but they have called it out on a stylistic level as in like, I could draw fan art of something completely unrelated to my story and people be like, “Oh, that's the Phantomarine artist. I know that's her.”

02:03.48

Delphina

Yes, yes.

02:04.34

Claire

It's something about how I do the eyes and the color and the shading. They just, they could just see me from a mile away. And part of me is like, “Oh no, I'm seen. I wish I could hide better.” Cause like,I don't know. there's an element of that where I wish it wasn't so obvious, so you could focus on the art and not the fact that it's probably me. But I feel that it it's kind of a natural thing that came to me because I actually started drawing not with humans a lot, but with animals. So I I'm actually relatively new to drawing people, and I feel like I I actuallygravitated a lot just towards kind of my own face shape which is that just kind of oval and then I've got big blue eyes and then I do my eyeliner exactly the same as all my characters that have eyeliner so I'm like

02:59.83

Claire

I've already cursed myself in that this is just my comfort zone, and this is what I learned when I entered college and they're like, you have to actually draw portraits now. And I'm like, “uh-oh, well, I guess I'm going to get some bad habits”. And a lot of people, I think they they started out earlier so then they could break those bad habits sooner. And i feel like I've run into it with my work where it actually has become a little bit of a feature with certain elements of the story where certain characters do look similar, but that's very much retrofitted. Like it's not intentional and it does come from me kind of looking back and being like, “this is a problem. How can I make it something more interesting?”

03:43.19

Claire

So yeah I find it's just a natural consequence of how I learned, but I've kind of wrangled it into a shape that is maybe a little bit more interesting on a story level. But you could very clearly tell, like, “That's Claire. That's Claire drawing a character. That's her.”

04:02.39

Delphina

That's okay, though. I feel like styles are... everybody here, I feel like, has a specific style that I could say, oh my gosh, that definitely looks like Claire, or that looks like Bob, or that looks like Star.

04:15.93

Delphina

But, like, it's kind of a weird line. Like, when is it a problem? When is it not? And are people going to notice or have a issue with it in the context of the webcomic?

04:30.92

Delphina

So I'm going to throw it to you, Bob. What about you? Have you ever used same face in your work?

04:37.67

Bob

So I haven't used it intentionally. I think that it was a little bit more of a problem for me when I was a new artist. And I'm quite old now, so I feel like I've mostly broken away from accidentally and unintentionally falling into same face.

04:53.57

Bob

But when I was new, I was very heavily inspired by the popular anime and manga of the time where, you know, your side characters might be distinct where like if it was a live action, we would think of those as like the character actors, right? The ones with like the unique facial features, but the main characters and the main cast tended to be the same kind of quote-unquote “generically attractive” face.

05:20.38

Bob

And a lot of times the uniqueness would come in their styling and their costumes, but it wasn't really about the unique face. And so it took me a really long time and kind of having that beaten out of me in art school and falling in love with real human faces. They are actually like my favorite thing, like distinct faces, like if I see someone with a unique face, it's like, “Oh, I gotta remember that. Like I got get angles and stuff like that.” So I do a lot of studying of real faces now, and do exercises to kind of take them from realism to cartoony.

06:01.21

Bob

And so I think that has helped a lot. In addition to the fact that, you know, I tend to work with fairly diverse casts, people who have to have different bone structures.

06:12.94

Bob

And so that has also kind of trained me, I think. Where I still am very tempted sometimes to fall into same face is when I'm confronted with a deadline, because when deadlines get scary, it's like, “Oh, I really just want to draw a round face with a little nose and get it through and not have to think too hard about making this character look very distinct.”

06:38.46

Bob

And I have to really fight that urge when I'm, you know, struggling to fill in tons of side characters. But I think for the most part, my struggle is usually like these characters are supposed to look really distinct and how do I get them to look the same every time I draw them, which is kind of the flip side of the issue.

06:57.82

Bob

I kind of wish they could have the same face every time, but it is kind of always a learning process and something that deadlines and laziness on my part, it always kind of tempts me a little.

07:17.44

Delphina

I mean, but what are web comics except like a series of lots and lots of little deadlines, right? And so I think that does make sense to be wanting to reach to the thing that's the default, like the comfort character or the comfort zone sort of like, “okay, I know I can nail this every time” versus “I'm going to have to look at the reference every time to remember where this person's mole is and where their hairline goes and all that stuff.” So, yeah, it's an interesting situation for sure. I'm going to throw it to you, Star. What are your experiences with same face in your own work, intentional, unintentional, things like that?

07:58.04

Star

So I'm not, I think similar to Bob, this was not something that I ever did intentionally, but it is something that I have struggled with. For a couple years there, and you can see this in like the first several chapters of Castoff, I kind of drew every single character with the exact same eye shape.

08:19.29

Star

Because my thing was i was just really really attached to kind of like this cartoony just every character has like these big oval eyes, And i don't mean like anime style, like the line went all the way around, it was almost like Gravity Falls but if you stretch them vertically a little bit and every character just that was their eye shape. And that was my art style for years and years and years. I don't think i actually ended up kicking that until like chapter 10 of the comic. And I was like, “Okay, I'm tired of just using the same eye shape for every single character”, especially when you get kind of the more sinister characters. And then they also have like this big cartoony eye shape. I'm like, okay, “I got to change this”.

08:58.13

Star

But my thing has always been, it's like, okay, even if all my characters have pretty similar eye shapes, that is something I'm working on, number one. But again, just sometimes it is easy to just fall back into the, just, big swoop and then you're done. Just the same shape that you're always used to drawing and then you're done, and it's easy, and you're fine.

09:18.29

Star

But one thing I try to do ,is I try to give every character... like If I'm drawing a lineup of characters for, like, a webcomic, for example, I try to make each character have a distinct nose and shape of their face.

09:35.27

Star

Because even if the eye shapes are similar, I do feel like... cause the thing about eyes, is like eyes are so squishy. Eyes move around a bunch. If you're emoting and expressing, your eyes will like constantly change shape, and same with the mouth. And so I try to take the things that are not going to be changing as much, like the shape of the nose or the shape of the face, just in general.

09:59.21

Star

And I try and really make sure that every character has, like, at least a somewhat distinct combination of those two things. And then I feel like, If you combine it with like their hair and their general color scheme and other features, you can kind of get away with it. But yeah, I think it's something that I'm more self-conscious about than is an actual problem in the story itself.

10:21.73

Star

But it's still something I'm trying to work on. Please hold.

10:26.57

Delphina

It's fine. I mean, like, that's the thing, too. I mean, I think some of it comes down to style and some of it comes down to… as long as you have enough there. And I really like how you call out like the nose doesn't really change a lot.

10:35.33

Star

yeah

10:39.27

Delphina

I think jawlines and things are things and also facial hair. You can kind of get away with, “Okay, that's going to be the core thing that somebody is going to focus on and see as different” so you can kind of wiggle around the other stuff, I think that's an interesting approach to it. I think for me I definitely am feeling what Bob was saying about all the anime cartoons and the cartoons i was growing up watching, just sort of lended themselves to same face

11:15.69

Delphina

I don't know if it's an animation thing necessarily, but there's just a lot of stuff where character differences were a matter of, you know, how many sparkles were in their eyes or the cut of their bangs or the colors that they were wearing.

11:30.83

Delphina

And I feel like that definitely made its way into my early work and was something that I had tried to move past as I grew as an artist.

11:43.59

Delphina

And, you know, it might be because of practical reasons that like, you know, you don't move a jawline lot when you have to animate somebody talking.

11:54.51

Delphina

I don't know. I don't actually know how it works.

11:58.19

Star

Because I think one of the things that makes it so prevalent in anime and just animated shows in general is that you do have to abstract those features down in order to, like, make it feasible to draw them in that art style.

12:13.18

Star

The art of... figuring out an art style is figuring out how you are abstracting specific features. Like how do you take a human nose, and design it in a way that it's just a couple of lines or sometimes even just like one or two lines?

12:31.08

Star

How do you scale down the complexities of the human eye into, just like, simple shapes? And I feel like sometimes what happens is you just kind of simplify it down… One might argue a little bit too much sometimes! And then I think that's where you start to get in trouble is you see all these anime characters with the same sparkly, sparkly eyes and teeny tiny nose.

12:52.69

Star

And the only way to tell them apart is their hair.

12:56.42

Bob

And that's like a really good point because I think this even kind of ties back to like what I was saying before about deadlines, where a lot of times I think same face exists in kind of corporate media because of deadlines and production methods and, you know, simplifying the methods to like get these characters on screen in the cheapest way possible.

13:19.33

Bob

And when you aren't working in that environment, when you are like an indie creator, it, you know, do you want your work to look very corporate? That's kind of a question. And, you know, I think different people have different feelings about that. I personally don't want mine to look corporate.

13:37.54

Claire

I think it's also, I've thought about a lot in terms of like old versus new She-Ra where old She-Ra, it was basically, as many things in the ‘80s were, a way to sell toys.

13:53.62

Claire

And you've got all these toys that essentially have to use the exact same model, the same sculpt, but then you can change you know the clothes, you can change the eye color, you can change the hair color, but the face? The faces of all of those princess characters are the same. But then you go to new She-Ra where you see this conscious effort to play with body shape, play with face shape, play with height differences. But that was just something that was not possible back in the day, or even if it was possible, they didn't want to do it because it would have been harder.

14:28.03

Delphina

And I think there's a fear of like the ugly sorts of characters sometimes to the things that are not conventionally attractive, basically, that wasn't very conductive to selling girl’s dolls because they all wanted them to be pretty and perfect. And there's some all kinds of problems with that, for sure.

14:49.13

Delphina

But just having that kind of idealistic, okay, these are what people are supposed to look like. It's beautiful. And so... that's another thing I think about.

15:01.72

Star

It's very much like the Frozen versus K-pop Demon Hunters argument, right? Because I've heard stories when they were animating Frozen. It's like, “you're not allowed to twist the girls' faces too much or else they're not going to be pretty. And then we can't sell toys of them.”

15:17.30

Star

And then meanwhile, K-pop Demon Hunters just came out. And that that movie's got all kinds of crazy faces in it. And I'm just like... You know that meme of the guy sitting on the couch and then they see something and they get really, really excited? That's me watching K-Pop Demon Hunters and going, “Yes, they're emoting, let's go!”

15:36.56

Claire

I've heard even stories of the animators who are animating Frozen. And I think any any movie from that same sort of “Disney princess” style where you've got these very almond-shaped eyes that when when you turn the head to a profile view, you basically have to shift all of the controls very specifically so that it looks appealing because the model from the front might look really good.

16:02.87

Claire

Model from the side might look like, oh no, I immediately see the 2D sort of effect is gone. And oftentimes animators, if you're working in a style like that, you'll have your own like library face shapes for like, here's how to make the base model look better from this side view. And I know that like it's it's a very appealing and very popular face shape for a lot of these sort of Disney princess style characters. But then as soon as you actually look under the hood, you're like, “Oh no, this is..”

16:38.22

Claire

You have to do a lot of extra work to make it keep looking like this. And I'm so glad when some studios are just like, “You know what? Nah, let's just have some more fun with it. There's no style guide here. Let's go.”

16:52.77

Delphina

For sure. And I feel like, too, because a lot of us were starting from this background of maybe you didn't have a lot of stuff on the Internet that you were referencing when you were first learning art. You were watching these Disney movies and you were watching things that were targeted towards kids from these corporations. And then you're kind of trying to move past that eventually, to Bob's point, you know, moving past the the corporate sort of look towards something that's more unique and suited to your own story, and comics too, because comics and animation are not the same thing, so we have other tools at our disposal and we also don't have some of the tools that animation has like maybe voice actors that would help you distinguish one character between another.

17:48.83

Delphina

So I think it's important to keep it in the context of webcomics, too. And to that end, I want to ask, you know, maybe how do you know when you have a problem with same face in your web comic work.

18:03.08

Delphina

And where do we draw that line between a stylistic choice or a design style that you have where your characters sort of look similar and an issue where we might want to address it to reduce reader confusion? I'll throw that to Claire.

18:22.41

Claire

I actually have a very specific example that I ran into in my very first chapter, because as I was saying, like I didn't have a lot of experience drawing people.

18:56.72

Claire

I had more experience drawing female characters. Not a lot of experience drawing men. So you can very clearly tell there's the very first page where my villain shows up and it's a guy and he's, I know I have to have a very distinct face for him. I need to find it.

19:17.79

Claire

So I have six or seven versions of the page where he shows up where I can see the face like getting molded into something more and more like what he ended up looking like.

19:30.83

Claire

And it's literally turning from like that kind of round, base shape that I was so used to into most long and angular Joker face that I could possibly think of.

19:42.16

Claire

Because I'm like, “this makes him distinct now.”

19:45.40

Claire

But what happened is like I reached that, but then a few pages later I was like, “Okay, i have another male character. I have to draw him shape-shifting into Phaedra's dad. And the dad has the same face! And I'm like...

20:00.96

Star

Oh no…

20:01.68

Claire

And like, I see it now. And I actually learned from a lot of people later, they thought it was intentional. And I'm like, “No, it's because I learned how to draw men two days ago!” I knew I have one man face shape.

20:14.75

Claire

And that's it. And I just, I find it so funny how like, it's completely forgivable, I think, because I know the history behind it, but in terms of actual character design and story design and stuff like that, like again, you can kind of retrofit it into this weird, “Oh, maybe it's messing with her head even more, that they look similar!” But at the same time, I'm like, no, I know that's not what I intended. It was just me being like, “Man face long, man face square. That's a man face.” And now I'm just like, “Make it longer.”

20:50.92

Star

Long, long face man.

20:54.83

Claire

Long man, long, long man.

20:57.30

Star

Okay, have you ever seen those Japanese candy commercials with the long, long man?

20:57.60

Claire

Yes!

21:02.53

Delphina

Yes!

21:04.35

Star

That's all I could think about while you were describing that.

21:07.42

Claire

And I joke all the time that his face- I drew a picture of what his face would look like when I'm finished with the comic in 2050 or something, and it's just like flying off the page because it's so long.

21:17.82

Star

Yes! Long man! Man so long! His face go on and on!

21:24.77

Delphina

Oh my God.

21:26.27

Claire

It goes to the heavens, and we never see him again.

21:29.29

Star

Goodbye Cheth!

21:32.37

Claire

But it's funny in its own way.

21:32.68

Delphina

He's gone.

21:35.32

Claire

And I actually really love seeing comics where you can see someone becoming more comfortable with their idea of what the character is supposed to look like. And almost like you can feel the frustration with the artist being like, “They all look so similar. I have to fix this.”

21:50.42

Claire

And then like two or three chapters down the line, you're like, okay. They have reached their final form. Everyone's happy. This was fine. And you can see it in like professional comics too. Like I love seeing the art evolution of something like the first chapter of Bleach, where I'm like, “Oh, a lot of these phases are very different than where they end up”. And then, then you see what the final form is and you're like, “Oh yeah, that's the intent.”

22:18.89

Delphina

For sure. We're playing a very long game here making webcomics. And page after page things are going to change just so incrementally and you won't even necessarily notice.

22:30.98

Delphina

But once you start looking back 100 pages or 200 pages. It's like “Yeah things actually did change! That's wild! I don’t know!” I'm gonna throw it to Bob about like how do you know when you have a problem with same face and like what's the line between like characters looking similar and maybe something you want to address

22:59.70

Bob

Yeah, I mean, I think the first basic issue is always just the very simple, can people tell your characters apart? And not even just can they tell your characters apart from each other, but can they tell your characters apart from other characters?

23:15.78

Bob

And, you know, for me, for example, my first webcomic, Demon of the Underground, all the main characters are in uniform.

23:26.45

Bob

So I couldn't rely very heavily on distinct clothing to make each character look different from each other. In some cases you can, in some cases, maybe it really is about, like, each character having some distinct thing that they wear that's really unique and it just isn't as much about the face and that's fine. So I think it's about just looking at the overall character and seeing like, where can you bring out the distinction?

23:59.23

Bob

And secondly, I think it's good to ask yourself, like if there is a same face problem, why? What are the reasons for the characters looking similar?

24:10.47

Bob

And you, Delphie, brought up a very important thing to think about, which is the idea that certain faces are not considered, quote unquote, “attractive”.

24:24.39

Bob

And, you know, are you boxing yourself in with a very narrow idea of what is considered attractive? Or are you afraid that other people will think that your character's distinct face isn't attractive?

24:40.44

Bob

Because I think that sometimes it's about your own tastes and sometimes it's about trying to preempt what you think other people are going to think or what you think is going to be easier for you to, you know, get readers and get fans for.

24:53.07

Bob

And I am just a really big advocate for… people love interesting faces and character faces and and they love the overall character! And that's what ultimately, you know, sells people on a character.

25:06.05

Bob

And I'm not going to like, you know, pretend that a generically attractive face won't have a slightly easier time getting out there. But I just think that it's also really an asset to have that kind of distinct look where, where someone like Clam, like, where someone sees a character and they're like “Oh, I know who drew that. And I know what that character is from because that look is so distinct.”

25:29.90

Bob

And I just think it's the final thing that I would say on that note is, does your approach to character design match the vibe of your story?

25:47.87

Bob

Because different types of stories have different goals. And maybe you are telling the type of story where, you know, you want all your characters to have that sort of simple, attractive look, and it fits what your story is about, but maybe it doesn't fit a different type of story. So just tying in the art style and the art approach with what you're trying to say as a writer, I just think that that's kind of what it comes down to.

26:19.17

Delphina

I think we're talking about attractive faces or other things like that. And it's interesting to think about what the goal of the story is, because nobody's going to go up to Gary Larson and say, I really like Far Side, but I can't tell your bear characters apart? That's not what they're for. They're just a vehicle for the joke or the message.

26:40.59

Delphina

So if it's serving your story okay, maybe that's all right. I think it's very interesting to try to figure out, what's my goal and what am I achieving here?

27:06.53

Delphina

And for the kinds of stories that we're trying to tell, matching that up.

27:15.36

Star

One example that I think is pretty prevalent to my life, at least, is I am on another podcast where my host and I watch a lot of idol anime, which means we watch a lot of, like, very cutesy, very girly, like, kind of… cute girl anime, basically. And this is, I almost feel like I'm betraying myself by saying this. So there is a show that is very, very popular called Love Live.

27:39.66

Star

And one of my biggest beefs with Love Live is the fact that all the characters look exactly the same.They have all the exact same faces and they all have like those big… they put 90% of the budget into giving these anime characters the sparkliest eyes you've ever seen in every single frame that they're on camera. And if you chopped all their hair off, you shaved their heads, and you put it in grayscale, you would not be able to tell these characters apart.

28:09.27

Star

And it drives me crazy, but here's the thing. You're never gonna see them without their very recognizable hairstyles.

28:22.73

Star

And like the point of these characters is to be cute anime girls. And they all have, like, very distinct hairstyles and different hair colors. So if you see them in a lineups, like, okay, there's some characters like between different seasons who never actually interact on screen. It's like, okay, these two look very, very similar. And I would have a hard time telling them apart if they were in the same shot, but they're from different seasons of the show.

28:45.88

Star

And it's like, okay, but within each season of the show, I don't necessarily have a problem telling the characters apart because there's other features like their hair and their hair colors and their eye colors and their voice actresses and their outfits and all these other stuff that helps you tell them apart.

29:01.86

Star

And so in that way, I would say it's like Delphina said, I don't think that having the same face is getting in the way of doing what they want with the story.

29:14.39

Star

It still annoys me just like a little itty bitty bit, but like... I would say that is a scenario where it's workable, it's doable.

29:24.83

Star

You're not having people say, “hey, I can't tell these two characters apart” most of the time, like 90% of the time, because there's other things that help you tell the characters apart.

29:36.38

Star

(wheezing) So I guess it's fine. But me personally, I gripe about it just a little tiny bit, little bit. Yeah.

29:42.45

Bob

No, I definitely feel that. And I kind of have this theory or this idea where like, I feel everyone's characters kind of exist on a spectrum where, like, one end of the spectrum is like a real nuanced human being with like thoughts and feelings and layers like an onion. And then like the other end of the spectrum is like an archetype, like a symbol.

30:05.23

Bob

And this character is like, like it's almost like a it's the character stands for something, but isn't so much that layered nuanced human person. And you, know, you can have even a mix of those different types of characters within the same so story.

30:22.42

Bob

Or you can just have different types of stories that deal with different ends of the spectrum. But I feel like they also require a really different approach to drawing them because I think the more archetype end of the spectrum does work very well with, even though it is a little, like I feel that! Like it still annoys you just a little bit when they all have the exact same face!

30:47.53

Bob

But having it where, you know for example, if you have each character that stands for like a part of the Zodiac and they have like symbols on them that mean that. And it's like, does it really matter what the shape of their nose is?

31:01.42

Bob

And meanwhile, if you're selling this kind of really nuanced type of character with all these different levels, then it can be really jarring if they look like everyone else and don't seem to be able to show that uniqueness in their facial design and have that same level of nuance and subtlety.

31:22.63

Star

Yeah, I guess what I would say is like, if the characters having very similar facial features is going to make it difficult to understand the story because readers cannot tell them apart.

31:36.49

Star

If your protagonist is a generic guy with a generic face and just like short black hair with bangs, he's going to get confused with the other character with short dark GRAY hair and the same bangs, except maybe there's four little spiky downs instead of three. Ooh! I'm not going to be able to tell those two apart!

31:59.00

Star

And if they're like fighting each other and interacting a lot on screen, then that's gonna cause a problem. Like I have a character in Castoff who was originally… her design was very similar to one of my other main characters. And at some point before starting the comic, I sat down and I told myself, “These two cannot look this similar because they're going to be interacting so much. If the only difference between their like general appearance is that they are both blonde, but one has a wavy hair and one has straight hair and like their eye colors are different, but everything else about them is almost exactly the same, that's going to confuse people. We're redesigning one of these characters because I know that's going to cause problems.” And this is something I've encountered a lot in manga because manga's grayscale.

32:52.21

Star

So you can't work with colors on like a regular basis. So like if one character has... Neon green hair and the other character has neon red hair.

33:02.87

Star

Well, okay, if it's in a manga, if it's in a grayscale comic, you can't tell the difference between their hair colors because it's probably just both rendered as white. And if they have similar hairstyles, I'm going to get them confused.

33:15.41

Star

So I think if you are looking to start a webcomic and you are worried that your characters are too similar, draw them in a lineup, shave their heads, draw them in a lineup with just like, just from the neck up, don't show their clothes and just show them to your friends and be like, can you tell these characters apart? And then also show them with their hair.

33:38.94

Star

Can you tell these characters apart just from their faces and their heads? And I think that that is a good way to just, you know, maybe avoid some issues before they come up.

33:51.37

Delphina

Yeah, I think too that in the realm of webcomics and stuff, you're not just looking at people with neutral faces staring at you all the time. You also have body language to work with. You also have, like, their mannerisms and stuff like that. So even if you have some characters, like maybe, that look very similar, if they have different ways of interacting or different speech styles or or just something that you can do with the posing and the writing? That can help a lot too.

34:28.28

Delphina

I think for me too, I see it a lot in short comics where characters might look a little more similar.

34:41.88

Delphina

And to the points that we already said, like it's because they're just a stand in for an idea or a symbol. You're not going to be sticking with this character for pages and pages and pages.

34:52.85

Delphina

If this is just an eight page one shot, like, it's fine! It's going to be, you're going to be fine. So I think there's things like that where you don't necessarily have to worry. But definitely when you're when you're getting into character driven stories, when you want to follow a character's arcs.

35:12.77

Delphina

Um, and especially when people want to see their growth, or over the course of years, that we take so long to tell our stories and it's a lot to try to remember sometimes.

35:27.94

Delphina

So the easier we can make that for the reader, I think the better it'll be. Especially when we're trying to meet bigger casts or we're throwing a lot of characters at somebody at the same time.

35:45.84

Delphina

Iif we have a lot of focus… like if you're changing the point of view from one set of characters to another set of characters from scene to scene? That's where sometimes you can get into a little bit of trouble because you're already playing a little bit by saying “Okay well we're not showing things exactly sequentially and we're not showing things from exactly the same people” So like, is this the same person who was in that scene? People are going to try to make a connection. People are going to try to make things feel familiar to them because that's how human brains work.

36:21.28

Delphina

And if you jump to a scene where somebody looks very, a little bit similar, but you didn't have like the context of... I mean, I think I'm almost saying like the opposite of what Star is saying, too, because I think it's also a problem where… I saw this person in one scene.

36:40.55

Delphina

I'm looking at a different person, another scene, but I'm not actually sure if they're the same person? And the writing isn't quite distinct enough or the personalities aren't really distinct enough or I'm just not oriented enough in this story to know all the setting stuff yet and where we are.

36:59.14

Delphina

So that's just another point of disorientation that can really throw people out. And that's where you might want to look at the art, the character design or… something else to try to get people on board with you know, who this person is, what they're about, and try to make that as distinct and clear as possible. Just one less roadblock, I think.

37:26.78

Delphina

So that brings me to my like, third point, like if you have some advice to somebody who's worried that it might be a problem in their webcomic. What are some things you can do if you suspect it's a problem? I'll throw it to Claire.

37:44.54

Claire

I think the advice given about drawing your characters bald is probably the best, like, first level kind of triage thing of just like, “Okay, do I have a problem?”

37:56.96

Claire

Because as soon as you do that, you'll probably learn pretty quickly, like, “Uh-oh, I'm using a lot of the same shapes and maybe expressions.” And maybe in your mind, you're telling yourself like, “Oh, I gave that character way different eyes than that character”, but then actually seeing them next to each other and showing it to somebody else.

38:15.84

Claire

It can at least prove that maybe you're seeing it differently in your mind's eye, compared to anything else. I think for me, one of the biggest things that I always want people to remember with webcomics is like, you can go back and you can change things.

38:32.31

Claire

That's always like one of the superpowers of being a webcomic artist. I know it sounds simpler than it actually is, especially when you're like, I don't know, you've already drawn 10 pages of this character and people are like, “I thought it was, I thought Jim was James from, you know the previous chapter. Oh no!” And you're like, “Uh-oh, well I could go back and I can do a little bit of zhushing up of that character design to make it look a little bit more distinct.”

39:01.70

Claire

One of the things that I think about a lot, Star was talking about Love Live and I'm like, “Yep, I know. I know exactly what you mean.” One of the…

39:09.50

Star

Ugh. Ugh.

39:10.70

Claire

I know, I'm sorry.

39:13.26

Claire

As a palette cleanser, one of the properties that I think of that actually handles potential same face stuff really well is Fire Emblem Three Houses.

39:24.26

Claire

Cause a lot of the characters in that are students, and they all have a pretty basic student uniform. But they all they all have different ways of posing themselves. They have different body mechanics, different expressions, different hair colors, as you do.

39:44.42

Claire

The faces themselves are not as distinct, but they have enough distinction within them. But even within the costume design, like that same school uniform, like some of them have their sleeves rolled up. Some of them have, like, a scarf.

39:57.83

Claire

Some of them have, you know, they're too big for the uniform. So the uniform is like popping off a little bit. There's always clever ways to take a very basic design, even one within your comic where you're like, “Oops, I made these two characters too similar.”

40:18.30

Claire

See if you can challenge yourself to not completely change things. Because you still had an intent with making them look a certain way. See if there's even just something you can do to pivot, whether it's you know eye shape or a different hairstyle while still maintaining the same general feel like… something. There's something out there. And I promise you, like stare at the wall enough and really think about it. And you can probably be like, “Wait a minute.That's exactly it. That's what I need to do.” And I promise you, the more that you just kind of focus for even like 10 minutes and just think about what you can do, you could come up with something.

41:02.34

Star

One small thing I wanted to add because I was reminded of it because of something that Claire brought up is that maybe in addition to having your character's appearances be distinct, maybe don't have two characters named like John and Jim and James all in the same comic.

41:28.09

Delphina

Yes.

41:28.30

Star

Those guys are going to get confused no matter how differently they look because your readers are going to, when leaving comments, get their names mixed up. So I would almost say it's like something I do in Castoff is that every main character, their name starts with a different letter.

41:42.84

Star

And I just try and make sure that people are not going to get them confused with each other. It's like, even if they typo the name… like I get so many people calling Vector “Victor” or spelling Arianna's name wrong. But even if they do that, they're not going to confuse it because there's nobody else in the comic whose name starts with a V or an A. So even if they type it wrong, everyone still knows who they're talking about.

42:08.39

Star

So, just, maybe another thing is keeping your characters' actual names distinct from each other is also a good idea. Just going to put that out there and then go back into my hole.

42:17.43

Claire

That's a good point, though. Thank you.

42:21.61

Delphina

I do the same thing, too, though. I have to have different letters for different people. I kind of broke the rule with Sydney and Sonia. But I do feel like there's just enough l letter differences to be able to be like, okay, you're never gonna forget that, you're never going to replace every single letter after the S with other letters. But yeah, it happens. I think it happens with very long names or long names that like maybe fantasy sort of things where, “oh, okay, I don't know what this is. And so in my brain, I am processing the first three letters and then I'm just cutting off everything else.”

43:06.76

Delphina

And in a perfect world where like everything else about your character was pretty distinct, it might not matter. But again, it's just one of the many tools at your disposal if you think it's a problem and you think you might want to adjust that so. Yeah these are really good tips! I'm gonna throw it to Bob, what do you have for us?

43:52.45

Bob

So even going back a few steps to before the actual having a character down on the page, and this is something you can really do at any stage, just, you know, diversifying your inspiration.

44:09.15

Bob

So that would mean following different types of artists who work in vastly different styles, because a lot of times, you know especially with like, you can see this with fan artists where a different artist can draw the same character in such a different way from another artist.

44:27.56

Bob

And it can give you some ideas on how to stylize certain facial features, even if the faces themselves would look fairly similar in real life. There are sometimes things that you can do stylistically to differentiate them.

44:44.73

Bob

And also i would say, again, going back to my love, which is real human faces and their very distinct qualities. I have a file that I, you know, my giant, giant reference file.

44:59.33

Bob

And I have a folder for random faces, and I have a folder for specific people's faces where I can get different angles of the same face. And just pay attention to where you're getting the references though, because for example, if you are looking at actors, just keep in mind that there aren't as many opportunities for, for example, female actors with very distinct faces, and it might be harder to find those unique faces if you're looking at like Hollywood, because you're you're actually gonna see a lot of same face if you're looking at the most popular Hollywood actors. So, you know, you can look at things like the faculty page of a yearbook, or you can look at like the employees on a corporate website. You can get really creative for where you are looking for unique and interesting faces.

45:59.58

Star

Just the way you brought it up, have you ever seen like lineup images of recent seasons of like The Bachelor or The Bachelorette and just like, everybody looks the exact same and it's like, “Oh my god, it's Attack of the Clones!”

46:07.14

Claire

I hate it.

46:13.89

Bob

No, I actually have in Demon of the Underground, one of the villains has like a board of advisors that are literally all like your bachelor guy.

46:24.39

Bob

Like they very deliberately all look the same as each other. And it's like a big joke. Like I put together a little fake captcha, be like, “pick out Pratt”. And it's like all eight of the board members, but they all have the same face.

46:38.73

Bob

It's just, you know, I like to make fun of those guys sometimes.

46:39.20

Star

Oh no.

46:43.06

Star

It's just like how every action movie has the same main character. It's like white guy with a heavy set with like a nice jawline and brown hair and a little bit of stubble.

46:54.32

Bob

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

46:56.48

Claire

Meanwhile, you have something like Jojo characters where you can very clearly tell that like to the artist, this is like the most amazing kind of character design, the most beautiful man, the most fashionable man on the planet.

47:12.59

Claire

And like there's several different versions of this kind of character. It's not quite same face, but like you can clearly tell like stylistically this is from the same storyline.

47:24.33

Claire

But they all have something a little bit different within them that makes them distinct, but you're still like, okay, “This is a Jojo. This is a Jojo, and I'm excited for another Jojo.” It's the same style, but they are all distinct characters, and I love that.

47:41.44

Star

Slaps the roof of the car “That's a certified Jojo right there!”

47:45.76

Claire

“I can fit so many Jojos in here!”

47:49.40

Star

“Fit so many in there. Them and all their weird latex bodysuits!”

47:54.92

Delphina

Listen, sometimes…tThat's the thing, too! Styles are not something to shy away from. And I would not want anyone to come away from this episode thinking, “oh, I have to shirk my style because if somebody can tell it's the same style from character to character, i have a problem.” Like, no, absolutely not. Like if you have a strength, please lean into that. Like people will appreciate it.

48:24.17

Star

You're going to traumatize all the little art kids in my YouTube comments who are so obsessed. He's like, “I have to find a style. I have to like, people have to know that it's my art the instant they look at it. “And then they're going to hear this and be like, “if we can tell it's your art style, then you have same face syndrome.”

48:39.53

Star

And then you're going to shatter their entire universe if you start saying stuff like that.

48:42.95

Delphina

No! That's not my intent!

48:47.83

Star

How dare you have recognizable art?

48:47.80

Delphina

Oh...

48:50.64

Star

How dare you? You're a hack. You're a fake.

48:53.98

Delphina

No!

48:55.64

Claire

It can be good, we promise. It can be totally fine.

48:59.83

Delphina

Yeah, for sure. And I'm just saying in the context of webcomics, when we're trying to tell a story, this is not necessarily even about people who have OCs and like appreciating their OCs independently.

49:15.62

Delphina

In the context of a webcomic, I feel like you might be contributing to reader confusion when you have this. And if that is the case, if you are already drawing pages and you're feeling like people are disconnecting, there are things that you can do. One of the things I want to bring up is cast pages.

49:36.86

Delphina

We have cast pages if you have, if you make your own site and you have various peripheral web comic pages or whatever, you can have a cast page where you say, this is my character. This is their name. This is their age. Here's what they look like.

49:56.14

Delphina

And especially when I'm reading a lot of comics, I am looking at those so much, especially at the beginning, because sometimes I am having trouble or sometimes I'm not quite acquainted with the characters yet.And I will be after a couple of pages, but I'm not yet.”

50:09.66

Delphina

So in those initial stages, when I'm experiencing confusion, I always look for a cast page and I try to figure out, “OK, here's this person.I'm reoriented now.” I don't want to say you should necessarily rely on that, but it can be a very useful tool that we have. And it's unique to webcomics.

50:34.13

Claire

Yeah, when I first started, I was like, “Should I? Is a cast page necessary? Is it cheating? Is it something bad?” But then I'm like, imagine a cast page is kind of, it's on the same level as like a map.

50:47.75

Claire

To have a map of wherever you are or like, orientation depending on where you are in the story or the just… it's information. And I think for something like a webcomic or just anything, any sort of visual sequential medium, like, unless you have like a full page splash of like “Name: Jim Bob McJones, Age:who cares” whatever like a whole thing where it's like a very clear like putting the cast page into the comic like…you can help people. If you have a large cast, like there's nothing wrong with just being like, “Here's a little bit of information. The story will give you enough to understand what's happening and hopefully be able to tell people apart.” But if you need that little extra bump, yeah, a cast page is extremely helpful. I rely on them a lot too. They're very good. Please do them.

51:44.97

Delphina

Yeah. I mean, um and I do like kind of the intro card sequence or like at least giving your main characters a couple pages or a scene all to themselves where we can kind of imprint on them to say, “This is the blonde lady. Her name is Margaret and she is a teacher and she's kind of sassy.”

52:10.76

Delphina

Just getting those initial impressions in there associated with the character can help a lot as you move Margaret to meet other people in the scene.

52:24.13

Delphina

But also having the cast page means you don't have to scroll back through pages and pages of archive when Margaret comes back onto the scene and then you're like, “Oh, oh, I know who that is! Who is that?” So both, both is good.

52:40.37

Bob

I just wanted to say that I really, really, really liked your use of the word imprint, like to imprint on the character because it just makes me think of like all these little like baby ducks or geese just like following after the character, like, “Oh, I love them so much now that I know them.” And just I just really love that visual. So thank you for that.

52:58.59

Delphina

I mean, like, have you seen the Phantomarine fans with Cheth? I think that's what happens. They imprint.

53:04.98

Bob

I feel that, yeah. And I love that, it’s perfect.

53:07.11

Claire

I don't know. I just shove him in front of people long enough and people are like, “I guess I like him now.” And just, I don't know, I'm lucky.

53:17.99

Claire

I'm lucky that the character itself kind of like, I don't know, certain characters, they show up and they kind of write themselves.

53:26.13

Claire

And I do think the, the concept of like using the introduction of a character as part of their design, like, even if the character is relatively basic in terms of looks, or how similar they are to another character, like, people will remember if they're introduced with a bang in a particular way. People might even be kind of protective of the idea of like, “No, that's not Jim, that's James. He's way cooler!”

53:59.87

Delphina

Jim and James, they're just fighting it out. I can't believe it. I don't know if I'm on team James or Jim. Like, we're all going to have to make a decision at some point.

54:12.21

Delphina

But I feel like, yeah, it's just an interesting... there's a lot of tools that you have. And we talked about color too. Because I think some of us are working in black and white comics. And it's definitely not impossible to like go into a black and white comic and like be like, “okay, how do you tell these characters apart?”

54:35.08

Delphina

You just really start having to think about contrast. And you have to start thinking about a little more about the shapes of things, I want to say. Because you don't have that additional tool of color, but even sometimes when you do have the additional tool of color, it's not enough to help if they're like all the same values or something, I feel like there's a challenge there.

55:03.47

Claire

It is one thing with my work where I know that I rely a lot on color, but I did also want to incorporate shape language, at least into my main three characters.

55:17.83

Claire

Like Phaedra is based around a spiral, Pavel's based around a triangle and Cheth is based around a square, but more like a coffin shape when it gets really particularly angled. And like in their silhouettes, you don't need that much variation because their heights are very different and their shapes are very different. But you get this sense of what this character is about just from the shapes that are introduced in their costume or their expressions or anything. It is a big thing in environment design, character design, where to see… which character is a square, which character is a circle, which character is a teardrop, and what might that kind of signify.

56:00.25

Claire

There's so many techniques that you can use. Pick up a book on character design, and you might be just immediately inspired and just be like, “oh that's something I can do.” Even working within a like an anime style, there are things that you can add that you might not have thought about before. So steal from everything, be inspired by everything.

56:26.11

Delphina

We love stealing. Stealing is great. Love stealing. And with that, like, I just want to say that it's amazing what we can do with characters. Like there's just so many options when you are a webcomic artist and you have the ability to go back, you have the ability to change things and you're gonna grow as you go.

56:52.21

Delphina

And that's always something that's comforting to me that even if I have… some issues or there is some confusion, like I have time to work on that.

57:03.62

Delphina

So yeah, I think we're going to wrap it up there. I think this has been a Chicken Caesar salad wrap. So thank you so much for listening. I've been your host Delphina and you can check out my webcomic Sombulus at sombulus.com.

57:21.49

Claire

I have been Claire/Clam. You can read my webcomic at phantomarine.com.

57:27.80

Bob

I've been Bob, and you can find my webcomics at intothesmokecomic.com and daemonoftheunderground.com.

57:35.85

Star

And I've been Star, and you can read my webcomic at castoff-comic.com.

57:42.42

Delphina

Now we're all going to go design long, long man.

57:45.47

Star

Long man!

57:48.70

Claire

If you can design a longer man than me, I will be very impressed, actually.

57:51.91

Star

Long man contest! Let's go!

57:54.41

Delphina

Oh my gosh. It's a challenge. I am down for it. Okay.

In this Episode:

• Did you launch right into your big comic idea when you started making webcomics, or did you do something else first? Our hosts share their experiences!
• hould a “Big Idea” be your first comic, in your opinion? What are some traps that people fall into when they want to start with a “big idea”?
• What is your advice to someone who has a “big idea” that they’re really passionate about, but they want to go about making it in a sustainable and healthy way?

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Episode Release Date: February 4, 2026

Episode Credits:

Ally Rom Colthoff (Varethane) - she/they, chirault.sevensmith.net wychwoodcomic.com

Christina Major (Delphina) - she/her, sombulus.com

Kristen Lee (Krispy) - she/they, https://ghostjunksickness.com https://www.lunarblight.com

Rae Baade - they/them, https://empyreancomic.com

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Transcription

00:06.45

Krispy

Okay. Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about the pros and cons of starting with a big webcomic idea.

00:18.76

Krispy

I'm Krispy, my pronouns are she/they, and I make the webcomics Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight.

00:25.41

Star

I'm Star, my pronouns are she/her, and I make the comic Castoff.

00:35.10

Rae

And I'm Rae, my pronouns are they/them, and I make the webcomics Overlord of Ravenfell and On Empyrean High.

00:43.22

Varethane

And I'm Varethane. And my pronouns are she/they. I make the webcomics Chirault and Wychwood.

00:50.37

Krispy

Beautiful. Absolutely delicious. Those sound like some pretty long webcomics, but we'll get into that.

00:57.09

Krispy

So, well, if you're like, I guess everybody on this podcast, you've had some pretty epic webcomic ideas. They're really cool and exciting. Maybe you've even been developing them for 10 or more years before you've drawn your first page.

01:13.67

Krispy

And they're probably going to take another 10 years to draw, if you're lucky. This is a situation that can be both exciting and scary. And we're going to talk about it today.

01:24.50

Star

We're gonna fight.

01:26.81

Krispy

Oh gosh. Or we're going to agree. Because... So I'm going to throw this right to everyone and I'm probably going to throw it your direction, Star, first.

01:38.27

Krispy

So let's get into the down and dirties. Did you launch right into your big webcomic idea when you started making webcomics or did you do something else first?

01:48.79

Krispy

So let's talk.

01:50.36

Star

So, yes, but also asterisk. Because I've had many big ideas, and I took a stab at every single one of them, with varying levels of success.

02:07.69

Star

My very first webcomic I tried doing, I would say, was my capital B, capital I, big idea comic. The epic fantasy sci-fi, spacefaring, but also fantasy chosen-one story that I was developing in my sophomore year of high school that I thought was the coolest shit ever.

02:33.46

Star

I did my very first attempt at a webcomic, just try jumping straight into it, and when I say jumping straight into it, I mean I had no script, I had no plan, I was flying by the seat of my pants. And you know that baby only lasted six pages before I got bored. RIP.

02:56.98

Varethane

Many such cases.

02:59.22

Star

Ain't that just the way

02:59.27

Krispy

Yeah.

03:00.84

Rae

Sometimes you last 10 pages.

03:02.71

Krispy

Yeah. Yeah.

03:04.55

Krispy

Absolutely. um

03:07.06

Star

Okay, go down the line. First webcomic attempt. How long did everybody last?

03:11.24

Krispy

I'm excited to get to me now. Alright. So I'm going to go to Rae. Tell us about when you first started webcomics and if it was the one.

03:23.13

Rae

Okay, so much like Star, I have an asterisk at the yes, I started my big idea. Because it was actually not a webcomic. It was notebook paper in a binder in freshman year of high school.

03:39.98

Star

Yes!

03:40.09

Krispy

So delicious.

03:40.55

Rae

And yes, it was my big idea where I tossed all my favorite characters in one thing. And funnily enough, some of those characters are in the current project I'm working on right now.

03:52.48

Rae

But the story is completely different. I was originally going to turn it into a webcomic after I finished it in the notebook form that only my real life friends had read.

04:06.79

Rae

But then I had friends going, “Oh, let's collaborate on a story. And that ended up being my main project for quite a while. And then when I returned to this big idea, I was like, “Man, this is a mess.”

04:24.23

Star

You just look deeply inward and cringe.

04:28.74

Krispy

Yeah.

04:29.37

Rae

Yep. But now I'm at my, “To be cringes to be free.” So I'm taking some of those characters and letting them escape from that mess of a story and trying to make it a little bit more coherent.

04:44.76

Krispy

I like that.

04:45.07

Varethane

The Blorbos, they're escaping.

04:47.70

Star

Let them free!

04:47.92

Krispy

Or they're being recycled. Reduce, reduce.

04:49.64

Star

What's that poem where it's like the tiger is in his cage?

04:55.29

Krispy

Oh yeah yeah.

04:55.86

Star

Yes, yes, the tiger is out. Just do that poem, but replace it with Blorbos instead.

05:00.94

Star

Yes, yes, the Blorbos are out.

05:01.81

Rae

Yes.

05:03.04

Rae

The Blorbo is out.

05:04.81

Varethane

Blorbos are free.

05:07.99

Krispy

Alright, Blorbo. Let's talk about your cringe there, Thane.

05:11.59

Varethane

Oh, boy. I'm not actually sure how to quantify this one. So Wychwood is probably the closest thing that I have to the big one, the story that I initially started writing as a prose story when I was eight.

05:29.81

Varethane

But it was the 13th prose story that I wrote.

05:29.86

Star

Oh.

05:34.68

Krispy

Oh yeah. whoo!

05:36.05

Varethane

And some of them got quite long on notebook, like those little Hilroy, like notebook paper that they give you in like elementary school.

05:44.39

Krispy

Oh yeah.

05:44.93

Varethane

So I wanted to write stories, the idea of making comics kind of started in high school-ish. And by that point, I was already kind of looking back on Wychwood and being like, man, I got to update this thing because I still love the characters. But like I was eight.

06:03.14

Varethane

I don't know what I was doing. So like pieces of it, I would start kind of lifting out the pieces. And then I rewrote the entire thing as a novel when I was about 13. It was like 600 pages in Microsoft Word.

06:17.51

Varethane

And then it just kind of sat there on my hard drive while I was like, really love comics, want to make a comic of this, but I definitely need practice before I actually...

06:28.86

Varethane

do it because I want to do it good. I was just self-aware enough to know that my art at, you know, 15 was probably going to improve and that I was not going to like whatever I drew at that current point in time. So I started a few other attempts at making comics. I did one which I called Maelstroms, like its little subtitle. I drew it all in those micron pens on blank paper, very laboriously cross-hatched.

07:00.86

Star

UGH!

07:00.91

Varethane

Got to 19 pages before I ran out of steam. There was one story which involved werewolves and that one, yeah, werewolf story, untitled.

07:09.28

Krispy

What? Oh my gosh.

07:12.69

Varethane

I never came up with the title for it. It was all drawn in pencil, some on lined notebook paper and some on blank notebook paper. That one got to be about like 35 pages.

07:23.91

Krispy

Oh.

07:24.56

Varethane

I think I attempted the beginning of Wychwood, an unrecognizable version of it that like, if I was to share these pages, it'd be like, this is just not the same at all.

07:33.95

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

07:34.29

Varethane

But I tried to start it like three or four times. I think the longest attempt made it to about 10 or 12 pages before I was like, “This isn't good. I don't like it”. So I just kind of kept throwing them away.

07:47.69

Varethane

Then in my first year of university, I was hanging out on LiveJournal and I was writing Inuyasha fan fiction.

08:00.04

Varethane

And I met people through Inuyasha fan fiction, including my favorite fic author who had an idea for a webcomic and was like, I want to do a webcomic. Would you like to draw it? You draw. So I was like, yeah, let's do it.

08:13.44

Varethane

And so we made SevenSmith, which was technically my first proper webcomic because that was the only one that actually made it to the Internet. The other ones, I posted them on DeviantArt and I attempted

08:24.88

Krispy

Yes.

08:26.81

Varethane

to put them up on Keenspace, which was, it was still Keenspace back then. It later became Comic Genesis. It was kind of like a free, sort of like what Comic Fury is now.

08:38.15

Rae

Oh yeah, my first one was on Keenspace too.

08:38.16

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

08:43.58

Varethane

Keenspace's interface was so confusing that I tried to submit and I thought I had submitted, but then I never got a response.

08:49.73

Varethane

And I assumed that I had been rejected, like cruelly because they thought I sucked or something.

08:53.00

Rae

Oh no, they accept everything. You still have to apply, but they did pretty much accept everything.

08:56.91

Varethane

Yeah, I know that now. So my best guess is that I entered my email wrong or didn't enter my email or something like that.

09:07.08

Varethane

So I assumed that like poor Maelstrom and my poor unnamed werewolf story, they just hated them.

09:11.91

Krispy

Oh, no.

09:12.84

Varethane

So they never survived.

09:14.45

Star

RIP werewolfs.

09:16.29

Varethane

Yep. But...

09:17.85

Krispy

That's so sad.

09:19.44

Varethane

Thanks to my, you know, the writer of the webcomic that I was drawing, purchasing hosting for it, that one actually made it to the internet and was shown to people. And I became aware that people were reading it, which I think turned out to be the secret sauce at

09:34.50

Varethane

continuing the comic going. So while Sevensmith was going, the writer ended up getting a job and didn't have time for it anymore. And so I was like, but I still want to draw.

09:50.53

Varethane

I just need to use all this drawing energy on something. So Chirault, I started almost on a whim. I was like, I'm still not ready to do Wychwood, but I need to do something. So I threw together some characters and then I put it up on the same hosting that I was using for Sevensmith, just on a little subdomain.

10:09.08

Varethane

That's the story of my URL.

10:12.51

Krispy

Incredible.

10:13.89

Varethane

It's so silly though. Every single time I started one of these, even looking back at all those other stories, I knew I needed practice. All these other little grains of stories, they didn't make it a lot of pages, but all of them, if I had finished them, they would have also probably needed at least 500 pages to be finished.

10:33.63

Varethane

Every story that I come up with, like I just have a disease where they all have to be long.

10:39.65

Star

Shakes your damn hand.

10:40.52

Krispy

Yeah.

10:41.28

Varethane

They all need to fit at least four angsty backstories, and that's just not something you can do in less than 100 pages.

10:47.16

Rae

You need to let the angst marinate.

10:49.14

Star

You need angst space.

10:50.40

Rae

You need to marinate the angst.

10:52.25

Krispy

I like this. I think that we all are susceptible to this disease, which is going to be awesome to lead into the next question about this, because those were beautiful experiences that I absolutely resonate with.

11:06.68

Krispy

So... what about big idea? Should it actually be your first comic? What's your opinion? And if it is, you know, what are some traps that people fall into when they start with, you know, Chungus Among Us, the big idea?

11:25.85

Star

The chungus.

11:30.37

Star

So I feel like my answer to this question requires a follow-up question because it's like, what do we mean when we say comic?

11:46.48

Star

Because if we're talking specific, yeah, Krispy, you never said what your first comic was. Hey, hey.

11:51.56

Krispy

Oh God.

11:57.62

Star

Steals your gun, aims it at you.

11:57.65

Rae

The hunter becomes the hunted.

11:59.81

Krispy

Oh my god. Okay. Okay. Um, I will talk about my cringe comics. Okay. When I was a wee lad, I would do a lot of comics. I was definitely into the, uh, you know, doing an online paper, doing whatever. My first comic ever was called Molly.

12:20.08

Krispy

And it was about this like really crazy, sassy little girl that would just be crazy. And she was just mean and sassy. And I was like, I think I wanted to be mean and sassy when I grew up.

12:32.08

Krispy

I don't know. Maybe I am there. But anyway.

12:34.71

Star

Aspirational living.

12:36.67

Krispy

So I went from there and then, you know, comics is just like my thing all the time. I would always discuss stories with my sister who I still work with to this day. Our Blorboitis has grown for many years.

12:51.85

Krispy

And from that we were like, oh my God, like we really want to do a story about our characters. So like, oh, this is really hard to say 20 years ago. Yeah.

13:02.43

Krispy

Oh my god! So, over 20 years ago, we had the original idea for Ghost Junk Sickness. Characters were very inspired by Final Fantasy, Trigun, and Magic Knight Rayearth. That was like the three things in the primordial soup.

13:19.38

Krispy

So, you know, we would go back and forth. And you remember those composition notebooks that they would get you for like middle school? So, that's where ours were hanging out in.

13:30.49

Varethane

I think that might be the name of the things that I was writing my novels in.

13:33.71

Krispy

And there was like, there were like black and white and they had like the little texture on the top and they were lined paper.

13:35.13

Varethane

Composition, notebooks, things. Yeah, I never knew what they were called. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:39.55

Star

Yeah.

13:40.19

Krispy

They felt so good.

13:40.67

Rae

Yeah, I use notebook paper because I'd be like, oh, this needs an extra page.

13:45.83

Krispy

Oh, yeah.

13:46.27

Rae

Scribble.

13:46.81

Krispy

Yes.

13:47.10

Rae

And then just put it in there.

13:47.67

Krispy

We've totally run into that. And it's just like, well, I guess we're stuck with that, even though it's pencil. But OK, the cool thing about well, not cool, maybe cringe? I don’t know. So when we were, you know, developing the story, we, of course, came up with our own language.

14:05.11

Star

Yes.

14:05.19

Krispy

And we were so into that. Like we're in middle school. Like we're so into that. When we were writing it, my sister was drawing. So I think I drew the first version.

14:15.73

Krispy

And then she drew the second version. So like, that's the thing is that, you know, when you were like, oh, I'm starting like multiple times on this big idea. We have this advantage because there was two of us who were so frigging obsessed with this.

14:27.24

Krispy

So one would start it and then it would be like, “Oh, it's kind of, ugh.” And then the other one would start and you're like, “Okay, let's kind of get better.” And then you'd be like, “Oh, we got to stop it though.” And then it kept going until we were like, “Oh, momentum is here.”

14:38.15

Krispy

Anyway, made up our own original language. So when my sister did her version, she wrote the entire freaking thing in this made-up language that only me and my sister understood. And  to this day, I'm like, oh I can still read it.

14:47.20

Star

Oh my god!

14:54.65

Krispy

I was like, oh, this is funny. I mean, like it's not complicated at all. It's like switching letters. But it was just really funny to see that. So anyway, comes from that. That is so, so old.

15:05.53

Krispy

Did a fan comic. We kind of just went right into it. And then just, you know, slowly kind of scripted. Got a little more polished with that. With the process that's going in.

15:16.27

Krispy

But yeah, Ghost Junk Sickness started from 20 years ago. And then... we always start with huge ideas because we're just so obsessed with it and eventually I took it over and it became, well it didn't became, it was originally Divine Ace. I did 600 pages of it by myself and then I was like, “Hmm I think I want to start again.” So I restarted it and did another 400 pages, and then was like, “Hmm.

15:47.83

Krispy

I don't think it's there yet.” And then from there, I think that's when we did the fan comic and then actually started what Ghost Junk Sickness is now.

15:57.97

Krispy

But like that's well over a thousand pages of this project constantly started. But we'll get into the opinions of, you know, the big idea after.

16:08.81

Krispy

i don't personally think that I wasted any time with that. So... Oh, my lore.

16:16.11

Star

The lore!

16:18.44

Krispy

But yes, going into our next question, I am going to ask you, Star, should a big idea be your first comic, like in your opinion? And what are some traps that people fall into when they start with this massive idea?

16:32.71

Star

So I'm going to say my opinion on this and then I will kind of elaborate on what I mean specifically. Because I do consider myself in the camp of, don't start with your big idea. Asterisk.

16:47.61

Krispy

Yeah.

16:47.84

Star

Big crunchy asterisk on that. Because it depends on what we mean when we say the word, “comic.” Do we mean like... “Don't let your big idea be your first big attempt at a comic”?

17:03.93

Star

Or I always say, like, start with something small. But when I say something small, I don't mean, like, go make a whole other webcomic first.

17:13.07

Krispy

Yeah.

17:14.58

Star

What I'm specifically saying when I say start with a smaller comic is, like, your first time in any medium is going to be a little bit clumsy. And I feel like a big reason why so many webcomics struggle to stay active and like kind of struggle in the beginning and why so many like first webcomics die so quickly is because people are making their very first attempt at sequential art ever.

17:45.30

Star

They're tackling these big, huge projects.

17:47.93

Star

And then they're either... like not being satisfied with their work. They don't understand why it's not hitting. They don't realize how much work it is. And then they just stop the comic after like 10 pages or they're getting caught in that remake loop where they get 10 pages in and then they realize, oh, my skills have improved so much over these 10 pages.

18:09.39

Star

But I want the beginning of my webcomic to be really good. So I should go back and remake those first 10 pages. And then by the time they're done with those first 10 pages, like the remix, they're like, oh, well, my skills are even better now. And then repeat the cycle forever until they get tired and then they stop and then they don't have a webcomic anymore.

18:27.89

Krispy

Exactly.

18:28.15

Star

So... When I say start with something small, I mean specifically if you have never made comics before in general, I would advise your very first attempt at the medium be something smaller so you can cut your teeth on the stuff that's going to matter to you less.

18:50.63

Star

Because that just kind of makes it a little bit less emotionally distressing when the big project that you start with isn't up to snuff and where you want it to be.

18:59.03

Krispy

Yeah.

18:59.12

Star

It's like when you very first pick up knitting needles for the first time, you don't start making a sweater immediately.

19:07.14

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

19:08.21

Star

You want to start like, make a square, make a scarf, make some coasters or something just to get used to knitting and the medium. And like you don't have to make like 50 coasters or like 100 scarves or anything.

19:25.51

Star

But, you know, just like baby steps. Baby steps. Like, do a couple of just, like, dumb little comic strips.

19:29.08

Krispy

Yep. yep

19:34.32

Star

Do, like, a handful of, like, three or four page little mini comics of just your Blorbos interacting. Just, like, write a little short story just to see if you, you know, gel with the medium. Figure things out.

19:49.04

Star

Don't jump in the deep end if you don't know how to swim yet. That's kind of where I'm coming from when I give the advice of don't start with your big idea. Cause you can, if you've made comics before and you really want to make a webcomic,

20:04.69

Star

I don't think that starting with your big idea is necessarily a bad thing if that's what you're excited about. But if you've never, ever made comics in your life and this is your very first time making comics at all, it's a surprisingly different medium than just doing static illustrations.

20:21.40

Krispy

Yeah.

20:21.52

Star

And so I would recommend, you know, like learning a bit about the medium before jumping whole hog into it, you know?

20:29.15

Krispy

Yeah, it reminds me of when I started beginning playing piano, and of course like you know, you want to start with easier songs to get your hands used to the keys to actually read the music, blah blah blah blah. And of course, me being a big nerd, the stuff that I really like to play is a lot of, well, specifically Final Fantasy music and all of those nice OSTs.

20:51.78

Star

Oh.

20:54.33

Krispy

So I was learning and I was like, well, I obviously want to learn this one song. And my skills were just not there. For anybody who is curious, the song is “Those Who Fight,” and it's a piano collections from Final Fantasy VII.

21:09.93

Krispy

And it's ridiculous for someone who just started out piano. And I'm looking at that being like, well, why doesn’t it sound good? Why can't I play it? And I'm like, hmm, maybe because I just started playing piano.

21:23.54

Krispy

So, you know, I was playing with songs that are simpler, things that make me get used to reading and following along and the hand movements of placements and how I'm supposed to play and I think that that lends just with comics too, is that, you know, it is its own thing, and I do think that you have to start with something less ambitious. I'll get to that later, but I want to ask Rae the same question. Should a big idea be your first webcomic, and what are some traps that people fall into?

21:56.39

Rae

Okay, so I'm kind of of the mind that if you have an idea that's just not going to leave your head, it's probably trying to tell you something, and you should probably do it.

22:10.44

Rae

Especially since if you sit on it, your feelings might change on that. You might—It'll essentially alter and change as you go through life.

22:22.36

Rae

So... If you want that snapshot, it's probably best to get it out as much as possible. The thing with, say, like the magnum opus is that's the accumulation of your work.

22:35.72

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

22:37.99

Rae

Usually you don't choose that. That just happens naturally as you gain experience. And I'm also just like, these ideas aren't always going anywhere. You can always revisit it.

22:52.05

Rae

You can either redo it or revisit the themes and storyline with other characters, even at a later date. I know a few authors that will tell the same stories over and over again, but that's what they want to do.

23:08.62

Rae

So it's not like you can use a plot line and then, poof, it's gone. You can't ever use it again. So I'm kind of of the mind that, yes, if you have a big idea, you probably do want to build your muscles.

23:23.38

Rae

Because I do see a lot of people that just sit on their big idea going, “Oh, but I don't know how to draw very well.” And then they work on drawings, but it's all static illustrations and they never actually make a comic.

23:33.24

Krispy

Yes. Yeah.

23:37.21

Rae

Which, that comic... You learn how to make them by doing and figuring out what works and what doesn't.

23:49.26

Rae

And another thing that I tend to find the people that sit on them tend to do is they have this ideal and this big idea becomes this nebulous ideal that they are working toward.

24:06.84

Rae

And as they get better, this idea gets better, but it actually doesn't exist. So they can't really know if it's better or not than what they're working on now. So it's kind of like they're comparing something that actually exists to something that doesn't.

24:26.43

Krispy

Yeah. I think one of the biggest pieces of advice I'd love to give folks getting into anything, honestly, is to just really hold your inspirations close so that it can help keep you not moving those goalposts all the time. Because I know that, you know, seeing other people post their webcomics,

24:46.33

Krispy

talk about their success whatever. Like I understand, jealousy is a normal thing. Feeling bad about your work is a normal thing. Like that's all things that we experience, but it is something that we can, you know, control with how we kind of deal with it. So I think goalposts and not shifting them when you see other things constantly and not in a way where you're like, I'm inspired and I want to do that now. Like not necessarily that, but like the core thing to remind you,

25:12.80

Krispy

why you started this, I think that's really important. And I'm going to go back to my piano theory again, because in learning piano, one of my biggest pieces of music that I've always wanted to learn was, you know, again, another piece from the Final Fantasy Piano Collections, It was Aerith’s theme. And I was like, okay, I'm going to learn piano as much as I can.

25:34.19

Krispy

And I had that set of music sheets always beside me. I couldn't play it yet, but they were always near me being like, this is why I'm playing because I want to play the song. And it was a good reminder.

25:47.18

Krispy

And I try to do that with art, too, where, you know, I have things that are reminding me of like, OK, like what was the core thing that made me start this? And when am I going to reflect and look at, you know, what I'm kind of making stuff so that I'm not constantly pulling all of these ideas and being like, well, now I want to do that.

26:04.76

Krispy

Oh, well, now I want to do that. Oh, and then you're kind of beating yourself over the head with these shifting goalposts and expectations.

26:12.23

Krispy

So it's interesting. Yeah. Here we go. I'm going after you, Thane. Look out!

26:19.84

Varethane

Oh, no.

26:21.10

Varethane

Well, I feel like a big part of what I kind of wanted to say, Rae actually covered a chunk of it because the whole like comparing a thing that actually exists with an idea that doesn't exist, like the two are just never the same.

26:40.29

Varethane

So getting practice in reconciling creatively with what your actual work looks like,

26:48.37

Krispy

Yes. Mm-hmm.

26:48.74

Varethane

is really important in terms of webcomics, any artistic endeavor, but because webcomics take so long, and you have to put so much work into it, I think it's something that is really important to kind of do.

27:03.00

Varethane

With regards to starting with the big idea, I wrote notes and they look extremely funny because it is a toss-up and there's like five paragraphs in a row that just start with “but.”

27:16.21

Varethane

So it's always a toss-up to be worth doing it all because it's so much work and you're doing it for free. You really have to want it. Like, you got to love it.

27:24.57

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

27:25.33

Varethane

So if that big idea is the thing that you love, if that's what gives you the juice and nothing else does, like you think about doing something different and you just can't, you just never start, OK, do it.

27:37.38

Varethane

Pursue where the passion is. Like, I do feel strongly about that one. But this is where that perfect is the enemy of the finished or even of the good. Because if you need to be too precious about it, well, if it's going to exist at all, it has to be perfect.

27:55.86

Varethane

It has to match what's in my head.

27:55.97

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

27:57.88

Varethane

You do have to realize that it won't. It's just not really, it's not really possible. I mean, maybe if, maybe for people who have that  photographic memory thing and are able to perfectly draw exactly that.

28:14.28

Varethane

But I feel like that sort of thing is fairly rare. And also like the impact of the story itself is the culmination of every single page and every single panel and every single little expression.

28:26.77

Varethane

You might find that as you work on a story, especially a really, really long one, that your own perception of your characters and your plot and your worldbuilding will also start to change because new stuff will just occur to you because now you're working on it, because you can see it physically on the page.

28:44.92

Varethane

It just hits different inherently.

28:46.80

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

28:47.81

Varethane

And it probably is going to end up being very different from that original concept. And depending on how much of a problem that is, it can be very painful.

28:58.60

Varethane

Or it can be kind of freeing to just be like, well, this is what I'm working on. This creation that I'm making that exists now, being able to look back on it as a whole.

29:12.17

Varethane

The third but in my notes is that if you do feel like things are going bad, you could do it over. If you feel like you need to.

29:19.74

Krispy

Yeah.

29:20.80

Varethane

The cops won't come. Nobody's going to call the webcomic police.

29:25.28

Star

Woo!

29:25.36

Varethane

Then the fourth one, the fourth but, is that, that is the road that leads the infinite reboot loop, which we have definitely talked about on there. The fifth one...

29:36.79

Krispy

there's some pony butts

29:37.05

Varethane

Yeah, it's a lot of butts. My note taking style is very, very bizarre for this episode. The fifth one, I think, is something that really kind of became apparent to me specifically while I was working on Chirault in particular, just because that comic took 11 years to make and it is twelve hundred sixty seven pages long.

30:01.05

Varethane

There's a lot of it. And I found that as I was working on it, because of that huge span of time, I changed as a person, and my tastes also changed, and my inspirations also changed.

30:16.63

Varethane

So the things that I was picturing at the very beginning of the story, when I was trying to figure out, like, what am I going to be doing? Like, where are these characters going to go? When I reread those outlines halfway through, and I think I've talked about this on previous Screen Tones episodes, too, after five years of Chirault, I was like, I need to start going towards the end game.

30:36.89

Varethane

What did I have planned for that again? Let's go to notes. And I pulled up my outline and I read through it and I was like, ah, I don't like this. So I threw it out and I started over with new ideas that mattered more to me based directly on what was actually happening on the page to the characters that I was drawing.

30:55.41

Varethane

Now that I felt like I knew them much better than I ever did when they were just ephemeral concepts in my head that had never been laid down.

31:01.68

Krispy

Yeah.

31:04.17

Krispy

Yeah. I absolutely love that. I think that's a great point.

31:08.08

Star

Fun fact, the whole thing about looking at your outline and not being excited about what's coming up, that's one of the things that killed my first real attempt at a webcomic.

31:19.47

Krispy

Oh.

31:19.53

Star

Womp womp.

31:19.55

Rae

That's a mood. I can understand that.

31:24.09

Varethane

Yeah, I think that whole like that desire to be really perfect and precious and plan every single little thing ahead of time before you actually have put pen to paper and started drawing a single page, I feel like that—

31:38.66

Varethane

It's not just a mistake for me personally. I feel like if I was to do that and attempt to do it in full, I wouldn't say I would consider it a waste of time, but like I would not hold myself to that outline after I was actually underway.

31:54.44

Varethane

Because at a certain point, if I think of a better idea, I'm always going to reserve the right to pursue that better idea. And I will think of better things.

31:59.38

Krispy

Yeah, you made a really good point, though, because you talked about the fact that making the comic, you're going to start to learn and know your characters better than what they started out with.

32:11.34

Krispy

And 100% feel that because the way that Space and I work, my co-creator, is that we do have everything written out, not detail to detail and it's very minute, but we have, you know, okay what we want. Here's the starting middle end, blah, blah, blah, blah. And currently, you know, we wrote the entirety of Lunar Blight.

32:31.19

Krispy

And now we're in rewrites because we're like, we're like, okay, well, you know, what chapter is this? Okay. We're going to look at that. What's the ending? Oh, okay, we're going to redo this. And it's just, yeah, things are changing. And I think like, and that's cool. That's cool that you're learning more about yourself. You're changing as a person and like that will change with it. So I think it's a really good point to just not be too precious about this stuff because you will change, your work will change and that's okay.

32:58.50

Krispy

We're not, we're not, we're not going to call the webcomic police. We're not narcs. We're not going to do it.

33:05.71

Star

Haha!

33:05.81

Krispy

They're not going to come for you.

33:09.43

Rae

Or are they?

33:10.38

Krispy

Don't say that.

33:13.12

Rae

They're coming for you, Krispy.

33:15.48

Krispy

No! I can't go back to jail! So I think that leads really nicely into our final question, which is going to be full of opinions in life and all that.

33:30.56

Krispy

What is your biggest piece of advice when someone who has the big idea says that they're really, really passionate about, but they want to go about making it in a sustainable and healthy way?

33:45.62

Krispy

Star, let's chat.

33:48.66

Star

Well, you talk about sustainable and healthy. Maybe don't make it full color. if you don't like color, maybe you don't have to make it in color. It's just one thing that might make things a little easier on you, just not doing… Listen, manga's all done in black and white, and you don't hear their readers complaining. Why do I get so many people in my comment section being like, I have to make my webcomic in color, but I hate coloring. No, you don't.

34:13.69

Krispy

Oh my gosh.

34:14.55

Star

No, you don't. You don't.

34:16.71

Rae

I definitely have opinions on this too.

34:19.93

Star

Oh, the floor is yours, please. I want to hear these opinions before we get off topic.

34:22.85

Rae

Oh man. Okay. So my first webcomic, I originally did in color. Okay. And then I tried to reboot it and I did it in black and white in traditional media. It was all fully in mechanical pencil.

34:40.52

Star

Oh my god.

34:41.33

Rae

It was actually more popular that way.

34:44.28

Star

Ooh.

34:45.57

Krispy

Delicious.

34:47.19

Star

Interesting.

34:47.71

Rae

It does not need to be in color.

34:50.72

Varethane

I think part of the thing—I'm not sure whether—I don't have a source to cite on this other than I remember being told it a while ago. But if I recall, Webtoon really wanted their originals to all be in color.

35:06.32

Varethane

And there was a lot of pressure, especially on that platform, that it has to be in color in order to get featured, in order to get lots of subscribers. And to some extent, I do see it a bit in the subscriber numbers on that platform.

35:18.83

Krispy

I mean, you make a good point because guess what? They're recoloring Full Metal Alchemist right now.

35:25.42

Varethane

Oh my God.

35:25.74

Star

What?!

35:26.70

Krispy

They're recoloring. Actually, so there's no recoloring. They are coloring Full Metal Alchemist for more subscribers on Webtoon.

35:33.61

Star

Wait, wait, whoa, who who whoa, whoa, Fullmetal Alchemist is on Webtoon?!

35:36.80

Varethane

bonkers.

35:38.03

Krispy

Yes.

35:38.82

Rae

Yeah, it happened last month, if I recall.

35:41.90

Star

I'm googling this so I can get mad.

35:47.10

Varethane

And that's the thing, it's gotta be in color.

35:49.29

Star

Why is it so crunchy?

35:51.90

Krispy

It's very crunchy.

35:55.10

Star

Did they just, what is, why is it so crunchy though?

35:58.26

Krispy

And they changed like the title. It looks like a shounen. More shounen specific. Yeah, I'm sorry. Sorry editors! We gotta talk about this!

36:08.30

Star

What did they do to my boy?

36:09.84

Krispy

Yeah.

36:11.70

Star

Hang on here. I'm dropping the link in voice chat. What did they do to my boys? Why are they so crunchy?

36:35.87

Star

Did they trace it in MS paint? Why are the lines so jagged?

36:38.73

Krispy

It's bad. They've blown up the art in indescribable ways. I think that's going to be a good topic for wire format. Sorry, we're going off topic. I'll talk about this after, but I'm so sorry I have hurt you, Star, with this information, it's bad.

36:58.50

Varethane

Cursed knowledge that can never be unlearned.

36:58.62

Star

What have they done to my boy?

37:01.41

Krispy

Yeah. Yeah. But to your point, Thane...

37:07.29

Star

Oh I'm in the corner rotting like a fungus for the entire rest of this episode.

37:14.25

Krispy

There is that expectation that, like, folks who are making webcomics these days, I sound like such a boomer when I say it, but whatever, I'm owning it, feel like they have to do color to grab attention. And it was stuff that I have run into as someone who has done black and white comics, and I will never change that.

37:33.39

Krispy

Sorry, people who are mad that want me to change that. It's just not going to happen.

37:37.84

Star

Those people are weak and you should kill them with a shotgun.

37:37.94

Krispy

Um...

37:40.20

Star

I mean, in Minecraft.

37:42.60

Krispy

In Minecraft. I'll destroy your houses in Minecraft.

37:44.25

Star

In Minecraft.

37:47.54

Varethane

Destroy them in PvP.

37:51.64

Star

Number one, victory royale, because all these little—said that I needed to do my comic in color.

37:57.45

Krispy

Yeah.

37:57.59

Star

Shows what they know.

37:59.35

Krispy

And it is a common sentiment of younger people who are just not into, I don't know, manga—manga rocks—thinking that things need to be colored because it's just more eye-catching because it's just more pretty. Well, I want to see like these characters do this and that and the other thing.

38:15.34

Krispy

One of my things that are really entertaining and fun when we do illustrations is people finding out what the colors are of characters. There's one character that we have in chapter seven and he has like, he honestly looks like one of the Powerpuff Girls enemies.

38:31.76

Krispy

Oh what are they called? Oh, the Gangreen Gang. Or plankton.

38:36.91

Star

Yeah.

38:38.19

Krispy

So anyway, he's green and he's got black hair and the yellow eye and stuff like that. And people were like, thought was purple for some reason. Like, this story isn't black and white, but I really got purple vibes. I'm just like, this is great.

38:50.55

Krispy

I love this.

38:51.71

Star

Purple vibes.

38:54.94

Varethane

I feel like there's a lot of pressure in webcomics nowadays, Like webcomics of all places, like the absolute Wild West side of like storytelling and art on the Internet, where it has to be so pro and polished and be this product that can, you know, sell real books and make a gajillion dollars on ads or something like that.

39:18.18

Varethane

Like there's a lot of pressure to take this in a professional direction.

39:22.04

Varethane

And I think that it's, for people who are just jumping in for the first time, it's not really realistic. Like that's not a standard that you should hold it up to.

39:31.15

Varethane

At the time that I got started in webcomics, there were some really cool comics out there, but the bar for entry felt lower.

39:44.76

Varethane

Even though the bar for entry has not fundamentally changed, it's still just as easy to draw something and put it on the internet as it was like, you know, oh, God, I don't want to say how long ago it has been now.

39:56.89

Krispy

Redacted.

39:57.30

Varethane

Anyway, it's still very easy to put a story online. Nobody will stop you from doing it. But I feel like people perceive it as being this huge undertaking that they need to take seriously and treat like a job.

40:10.79

Varethane

And I don't think that's really fair. It's a little off topic, but yeah, strong feelings about this.

40:14.07

Krispy

No, I think it is on.

40:16.19

Krispy

It's on topic because, you know, one of the things about starting that big idea is that a lot of people are self-conscious about the wrong things, which are, you know, they're starting the webcomic and you're like, okay, but how come I don't have like 100 subscribers already? And it's just like, why are you paying attention to that, Brenda?

40:30.58

Krispy

That's not about this.

40:31.85

Star

I'm going to eat Webtoon.

40:33.50

Rae

I think one of the things that a lot of people don't realize too is a lot of these big polished webcomics that are online are not the first attempt for the creators.

40:45.03

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

40:46.39

Star

Mm-hmm.

40:46.45

Rae

Thane was talking about how they drew Wychwood before and I'm reworking older characters into a new comic.

40:57.59

Rae

Krispy's done... had like proto Ghost Junk Sickness comics out there. The polish needs to come with the work like you need to put the work in to get that, and if you're if it doesn't exist that's not going to happen

41:15.99

Krispy

I think it's also about sharing space with folks that are growing with you, too, and encouraging that growth. And I know it's difficult. And I feel like I would go through the same traps that I'm seeing a lot of younger creators go through these days where they're just constantly comparing themselves to like people they want to be, but in like the worst ways, not like learning from it, just being like, well why don't I have that?

41:41.47

Krispy

And I think that that's something you need to abandon. If you want to be sustainable or healthy about this, you have to abandon checking out other people's homework in a way that compares your work to theirs and constantly wanting that. You can feel sad about it. You can feel jealous.

41:58.12

Krispy

Again, those are normal things, but like that cannot be the driving force. That can't be something that just weighs you down. And you know, it is hard work to get rid of those shackles and be like, okay, you know I'm just going to freaking focus on what I'm doing.

42:14.70

Krispy

And I think the posting on stuff like Webtoons that has those numbers that make people feel that they are in a competition just does not help.

42:26.16

Krispy

It just does not help at all. Like when I was doing all of my comics before and I was posting my webcomics on DeviantArt because that's my place.

42:36.60

Krispy

That's where I was. Yeah, I get some few comments, maybe, but I never, that was not the driving thing. I did it because I had the disease and I had to post these out of my brain.

42:48.98

Star

The sickness, if you will.

42:50.94

Krispy

If they were not out of my brain and on paper like that was an issue because I couldn't stop talking about them and that's why I make comics, is because I have to just evict these blorbos from my head.

43:08.53

Star

Exorcise.

43:09.41

Krispy

Yeah. And I think Thane said it, having that passion has to drive that. You know, if your big idea is just strangling you and it's like, let me out. Like, you could do it.

43:24.18

Krispy

You're allowed. But, you know, with some of the advice that was said in this episode, you could do small chunks of it. You could do like mini parts of it. But know that this is also you learning too.

43:36.23

Krispy

And learning is the—that's the most precious part of all of this is that we're learning as we're doing it And you're just going to get better. You're just going to have to have cringe art.

43:48.29

Rae

And the learning never stops either.

43:50.68

Krispy

Yes.

43:51.17

Rae

It never stops.

43:51.21

Star

Yeah, I mean, I think you said it best at like close to the start of the episode where it's like, yeah, you did like six, 700 pages of these attempts at comics that ultimately got rebooted, but none of that work was wasted.

44:04.17

Krispy

Yeah.

44:04.21

Star

And that's something that I try and preach to people too, is like, listen, every single drawing is, it's like gardening, right?

44:12.75

Krispy

Yeah.

44:13.41

Star

You know, like sometimes your veggies don't grow the way they want to, but those plants become fertilizer for what comes next.

44:20.55

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

44:21.31

Star

And so like every page of comics that you draw is fertilizer. It's learning. It's improving your skills so that you will get better as you go on. Your first attempt at a comic is not going to look as good as your 10th.

44:35.09

Star

Your first comic page is not going to look good as your 20th. Your 20th page is going to look worse, arguably, than your 100th comic page. But that's just what this is.

44:46.39

Star

That's what the medium is. That's what being an artist is, is slowly, gradually getting better by, you know, putting out something mediocre and then getting better and learning from it and then taking steps towards improving it for the next time.

45:04.35

Krispy

Yeah, exactly that. And I think that when I think about this advice, one of the things that I always like to remind folks when deconstructing it, too, is that you'll see it a lot on social media being like, don't start with your big idea, start with something small. And like Star was saying, like, not necessarily meaning a shorter comic or like a short story.

45:24.22

Krispy

But I think to me, the advice should be more about expectations. Don't start out with massive expectations that you're going to be the next

45:35.85

Krispy

huge massive hit original. You know, don't start out with those expectations because that's hard on you. That is a lot. Start with smaller expectations. That's the biggest part. Your smaller expectations is like, you know what? I think I hit five pages and I think that's good for me for this project and that's good because that's an expectation that you kind of set for yourself it's a little smaller.

45:59.48

Krispy

But that's okay. And it could be parts from your giant story of your Blorbos that are strangling to get out of your brain. Or it could be something else. But I think expectations is key here when we talk about this advice, when you see it on social media.

46:16.52

Krispy

And even when people are incorrectly saying, like, “Just don't start with your big story. Write short stories.” Personally, and don't care if people disagree. I think that's incorrect.

46:28.41

Krispy

I think that, like we've said several times in this episode, the passion is what drives you. And I personally can't write short stories to save myself. It is so hard. It's a different skill set too.

46:42.44

Krispy

Like that's telling your brain.

46:43.07

Star

Yeah, have the long story disease. Yeah.

46:44.51

Krispy

I do. so I do have a long story disease.

46:47.54

Varethane

High five.

46:49.92

Krispy

it's hard. It is a completely different skill set to do short stories than opposed to long ones because it's different ways of storytelling. It's different ways of conveying information.

47:00.92

Krispy

And it's just like, if I just want to do my giant story and it's going to look a little cringe, I don't care because I'm doing my giant story and I'm obsessed with these OCs and it doesn't need to be this most perfect polished “oh my god, this is gonna get an award”—like, that's nice but no this is—I gotta get rid of the disease.

47:21.32

Varethane

I've tried to make short stories because I do feel like it's such a different skill. I feel like it's a valuable one and I want to learn it. So every so often I get like a little bug and I'll try to make a short story.

47:35.59

Varethane

And a lot of the short stories that I make fundamentally, it always feels like they're straining a little bit. Like they're a short story, but they really want a second chapter or like a something, something else.

47:47.75

Varethane

I feel like I'm getting a little bit better at it. But a lot of my first short stories, they just read like the first six pages of a chapter, and then they would sort of end in an unsatisfactory way.

47:58.81

Varethane

Like it just, you know, they didn't really feel super complete. And by practicing doing it, I've slowly improved at actually making short stories that truly are short.

48:07.08

Krispy

Mm-hmm.

48:09.09

Varethane

And I don't feel like I wasted any time or something by doing those initial ones, because I never would have gotten better if I had not done those. But it's definitely, it's real, like a good short story—I'm so impressed.

48:22.77

Varethane

Like whenever I read one, I'm like, damn.

48:26.11

Rae

Yeah, I think short stories are good as, like, flexing on limiting scope. And I do think that is something that you definitely need to do when you get to your big idea, because so much of us have scope creep.

48:44.01

Rae

Even if we have long stories, we want to make them longer.

48:48.27

Krispy

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

48:48.43

Rae

So short stories do really help in editing and trying to figure out what is actually necessary to put in there.

48:59.87

Rae

But yes, I also have long story disease. So… yeah.

49:05.89

Star

Listen, I too, we're all shaking hands here with long story disease.

49:10.13

Star

My rebuttal for that is that when I say short story, personally, what I mean is like, just draw a single scene. Just like draw that one cool scene that you've got in your head.

49:22.13

Star

Just draw that. I do so—like, so many pages of my sketchbook is just like one page, just funny interactions between such and such characters.

49:23.23

Krispy

Yeah.

49:35.40

Star

Because it's like, I just want to get the brain worms for this one specific scene out of my head.

49:40.43

Krispy

Yes.

49:40.71

Star

And it's just like one or two pages of just, like, this silly little thing. It doesn't have to have a whole beginning, middle, and end.

49:46.95

Krispy

Nope.

49:47.25

Star

Sometimes you just want to draw the blorbos yeah getting made fun of by other blorbos because they're cringe. And it's funny. And you're just having a good time. You want to draw your socially anxious character having a socially anxious experience and having a giggle about it because it's like, aw baby. Sometimes you can just draw that. When I say short story, you can just draw your characters being silly.

50:08.82

Krispy

Yeah.

50:08.84

Star

You can just draw like one or two pages of a little thing. It doesn't have to be like a whole, finely put together story. You can just, you can just draw your characters doing fun shit and it's fine.

50:19.66

Krispy

Yeah. You are the master of your own domain at the end of the day. And like Thane was saying, the bar of entry into webcomics is fundamentally still the same.

50:33.30

Krispy

There's that expectation that is unfortunately going along with what's going on with the webcomic sphere right now. But, you know, you can just, you can, you can.

50:44.80

Krispy

And you should. You should just draw your blorbos in a comic and just do whatever. And you know what? You know what I’m going to say? It doesn't have to be posted online. I think that you could just keep it to yourself and learn from that too.

51:00.14

Krispy

And if you're like, you know what, this is fire. Sure. Share it with the world. Just know that, you know, you can do these things. You can craft these stories.

51:11.49

Krispy

You can have all of this fun with webcomics, but just understand the expectations that you're putting yourself through.

51:19.59

Rae

Krispy is advocating for your webcomics to not be on the web. The webcomic police are really going to come after you now.

51:26.33

Krispy

oh

51:30.65

Varethane

Yeah, unfortunately.

51:34.07

Krispy

Did you just web your comic?

51:37.92

Star

We found you in violation of not webbing your comic. You're under arrest.

51:42.28

Varethane

You know what? Dolphin Sound U un-webs your comic.

51:45.84

Star

No!

51:46.20

Krispy

Oh my god.

51:50.48

Star

Unwebs your comic, just like kills your hosting.

51:57.42

Varethane

Another word for that is a DDoS attack, but anyway.

52:02.54

Star

DDoS stands for... something.

52:27.54

Krispy

So I think that that has been a chicken salad Caesar wrap, classic wrap and delicious, or buffalo one. I'm really into the spice.

52:37.77

Star

Make up your mind!

52:40.07

Krispy

I've been Krispy and you can find my work at ghostjunksickness.com or lunarblight.com.

52:47.14

Star

And I've been Star the whole time. You can find my comics at castoff-comic.com.

52:53.95

Rae

And I've been Rae, and you can find my comic On Empyrean High at EmpyreanComic.com and Overlord of Ravenfell on Webtoon.

53:05.47

Varethane

And I am Varethane. And you can find my webcomics at chirault.sevensmith.net and at wychwoodcomic.com.

53:15.83

Krispy

Are you sure you guys are the people you say you are? I'm a little scared right now. Who's in the chat with me? no.

53:23.51

Varethane

Some call me Thane.

53:24.88

Star

It's actually, actually Sam Reich. That's why I keep saying that at the end of the episode. Dun, dun, dun.

In this Episode:

• Let’s talk about short-form comedy!  What is it, what kinds have you made, what are the basics you reach for to make short-form comedy work, and what are the challenges?
• Let’s talk about comedy in a long-form narrative! How is this different from a short-form/gag-a-day approach, and how do you make a comedic character work?
• What is your advice to someone who is making an effort to make a fully-comedy-genre comic or something that weaves comedic moments into the narrative, but maybe the jokes aren’t engaging or a character you think is VERY funny is not landing with the readers?

We hope you've enjoyed our 2025 podcast season of Screen Tones! We're going to be taking a break to recharge and integrate a few changes into our show, and we want to know what webcomic questions YOU have for us on an upcoming special Q&A stream! Send us your questions at screentonescast.com/contact, and hey!

We rely on the generosity of listeners, so if you enjoy what we do, please consider dropping by our Ko-Fi or Patreon to help us keep things going.

Thanks again for an amazing 2025, and have a wonderful holiday season (Halloween is a holiday, right? Right!)

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Episode Release Date: September 24, 2025

Episode Credits:

Christina Major (@delphina2k) - she/her, sombulus.com

Bob Appavu - any, https://intothesmokecomic.com https://www.demonoftheunderground.com

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Transcription

00:00.68

Delphina

Alright, here we go. Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk about anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about comedy in webcomics.

00:12.17

Delphina

I'm Delphina, use she-her pronouns, and I make the webcomics Sombulus.

00:18.05

Bob

And I'm Bob. I use any pronouns and I make the web comics demon of the underground and into the smoke.

00:24.86

Delphina

Okay, so there are a lot of approaches to comedy in webcomics. um I wanted to get together an episode about that because, yeah, it's good to talk about.

00:35.67

Delphina

um Humor is often rooted in all kinds of cultural trends, current events, age groups, time periods, and styles. So it can be really hard when people ask,

00:46.76

Delphina

about how to learn to write comedy um to talk about it because there's there's no there's so many different ways to approach it but um bob and i are going to try how to do our best today to break down at least our experiences and approaches and hopefully that'll help you too um there's there's just so many things that you can do and yeah i'm excited to to talk about um at least some of them so um I think the thing that I think about when I first think about comedy is like the short form things like the the traditional newspaper style um things that may or may not have recurring characters like Calvin Hobbes or the far side.

01:27.06

Delphina

um And that's like often people's first exposure to comedy sort of in comics. Right.

01:35.95

Bob

Yeah, I would say so. I mean, that's probably where I first discovered comedy in the form of comics and realized that it was something that I enjoyed and wanted to try out.

01:47.59

Bob

um You just kind of jogged my memory because yeah, back in like, junior high, high school. Those were the first types of comics I actually wrote. And now, you know, I do primarily long form web comics, but I still also do a lot of like one shot comedic things.

02:05.29

Bob

um I think the like the horizontal format we think about with the old newspapers, it's harder now because You know, with with everyone primarily being on like a vertical phone screen, they, you know, but, you know, you just oriented vertically and all of a sudden same jokes and it reads differently.

02:18.84

Delphina

who

02:26.47

Bob

um You know, I do a lot of, oh sorry, go ahead.

02:28.22

Delphina

Yeah. Yeah. i'd Like, cause the, the four panel comics in, in Japan um were kind of traditionally stacked one on top of the other, because that's a more natural reading order for that country.

02:41.02

Bob

oh yeah.

02:41.19

Delphina

So I feel like that kind of translates to when we adapt that.

02:41.29

Bob

Yeah.

02:46.11

Bob

Yeah, definitely. I completely forgot about that. And I remember when I would read a manga and like you'd even have like the little kind of side stories, like vertical, like sometimes on the side of a comic page.

02:55.37

Delphina

Yeah.

02:57.74

Bob

I love that. And, um you know, my primary platform for short form is still Tumblr.

02:59.27

Delphina

yeah

03:05.49

Bob

It just does really well on that platform still. And it's one of the few platforms that is like a social media platform with viral dynamics that also allows for vertical scroll format.

03:20.51

Bob

If I were, you know, posting on something like blue sky or Reddit or Instagram, you know, I would do more of like a, like there you do a lot of kind of like four squares in a square shape.

03:31.81

Delphina

Mm-hmm.

03:32.66

Bob

um But for Tumblr, I just really love doing the vertical because it gives you like, it's so good for setting up a punchline because with, with the scroll, you have a reveal. And so people can't even get a hint of it ahead of time.

03:49.01

Bob

And it's really effective for that.

03:50.82

Delphina

Yeah. Oh, gosh, I hadn't even thought about that because you're right. Like, then you can kind of hide the punchline in a way that you really couldn't with like a horizontal comic. Like if you were reading it all on one page, like you could still kind of get a peek at what's going to happen at the end if you're looking out of your peripheral vision and not necessarily seeing what was happening. But that's true.

04:11.99

Bob

Yeah, I have to force myself not to jump ahead when I'm reading comedy comics that are not vertically oriented. Like it's an exercise of willpower there.

04:26.22

Bob

So, yeah.

04:27.30

Delphina

Yeah, and I like what you're saying too about Tumblr being really nice because things can kind of go viral and kind of get passed around too. I feel like short form really has that advantage like because we both work on like long form comics too and and you can't necessarily share like

04:44.35

Bob

Yeah, exactly.

04:47.09

Delphina

Any old page out of the archive and have it make sense to anybody, but short form you can like if you're just doing strip comics or something like that you could pass those around on just about any social media platform and have them kind of take on a life of their own.

04:52.92

Bob

yeah exactly

05:03.45

Bob

Exactly. That's what's so handy about it because you don't rely on any sort of external context. Everything is right there in the post. And then the person who shares it from you Like they may know you, they know the type of work you do.

05:19.77

Bob

The next person they pass it on to, they don't need to know anything about you in order to understand. I mean, sometimes it helps if they kind of know your brand or your vibe. They're like, oh yeah, this is that person's work.

05:30.97

Bob

But they will not need to know, you know, what happened in this character's childhood in order to get the joke.

05:37.28

Delphina

Mm-hmm.

05:39.31

Bob

um Yeah, so it's really handy for people social media in a way that long form isn't. And so I feel like they can compliment each other in a way where like if you kind of struggle to get your long form comic posts out there, you can sometimes do like a little short form bit and get some eyes on your work.

06:03.00

Delphina

Yeah, I think so too. um I feel like you do want to try to be a little more regular if that's like an actual marketing tactical approach that you're doing because like, I feel like i I don't tend to do that so much, but I do have a couple of short form comics that are just kind of floating around on on Tumblr getting um getting passed around and people enjoy them, but they don't necessarily like attach them to me because I don't make a regular thing of it. I don't have like a brand around like,

06:33.34

Delphina

what those sorts of comics so like people will follow me and then they're like wait what's the Sombulus thing I don't that's not a joke ah so like so I think there's um like they're fun to do and they're fun to get a little bit of of attention from but um at least in my experience um getting that to transfer over to like readership for a long form comic is kind of hit and miss um

06:40.30

Bob

Oh.

07:02.89

Bob

Yeah, I feel like I kind of fall in a middle range because I am not like a full time short form comic creator. But I do them, I think, regularly enough that I've been able to maintain some sort of audience for them and also translate some of them into my webcomic.

07:22.50

Delphina

who

07:23.87

Bob

It's never, ever, like, a majority of them. And that's the thing is you have to be, like, emotionally okay with the idea that if you have, like, 30,000 followers that maybe only, like,

07:37.71

Bob

five or 10,000 of them actually like your long form webcomic and the others are all just there for, for the one-off jokes.

07:45.38

Delphina

yes

07:45.58

Bob

And that's fine. Because the thing is that when you have one of those posts go viral, you just like, you end up having lots more people kind of just incidentally see your page, come back to see what it is that you're all about.

08:06.05

Bob

And yes, they came because they liked that joke, but people are complex. Sometimes they like more than one thing. So some of them will translate over. And if your main focus is the comedy and humor stuff, well, then then it's just, you know, win-win for you because, you know, the the difficult part is being consistent because everyone, you know, I've gotten this sometimes from people who are like, oh yeah, like it must be so easy if you just do like a like a joke comic to to go viral.

08:40.75

Bob

um And it's like, yeah, it's easy to go viral once.

08:44.09

Delphina

Mm-hmm.

08:44.66

Bob

um But ah to actually be consistently on and consistently funny Like that's a lot to ask of someone. And like, that's why I say I'm kind of in a middle ground where I don't think I have the steam.

09:00.34

Bob

And also this is not my primary project. So I can't just be funny all the time. So, yeah, it looks easy on the outside, but there is some challenge there.

09:09.76

Delphina

Yeah. And I like what you said, too, about how emotional you have to be emotionally ready for that, because I feel like sometimes I'm looking at the story that I spent like 15 years on developing these characters. I love them. I want people to know them.

09:25.37

Delphina

And I'm only getting five likes on them, but I'm getting 100,000 on this other thing.

09:30.24

Bob

Yeah.

09:31.44

Delphina

And it's like, you have to understand that it's not going to translate one to one. And it's not anything that's wrong with you. It's not anything that's wrong with the style of thing that you're doing.

09:44.51

Delphina

But it does get you... into people's peripheral it does get you kind of into like okay incidentally you might like this other thing that i do and you know just keeping consistent with both of those things um can can kind of reap some rewards if that's the way you're going plus it's just fun like i feel like everybody like we're we have some kind of weird

09:48.91

Bob

yeah

10:04.48

Bob

Yeah.

10:08.47

Delphina

commentary to talk about our cat or our audience or whatever.

10:10.44

Bob

Yeah.

10:11.27

Delphina

And we just were just like, you know what, I can make a little comic about this. It, you know, it's funny to me, it's gonna be funny to somebody else, maybe and I'll just put it into the world and see what happens.

10:21.98

Delphina

And like, there's just a joy and doing it in and of itself. In my experience.

10:27.53

Bob

Yeah, exactly. It's like, what, you expect me to just not make jokes ever?

10:31.38

Delphina

I know.

10:31.80

Bob

Like, I'm not that type of person. I am going to make jokes whether you like it or not. So yeah, I have this theory, like, because I completely feel what you're talking about, where it's like, it is just so much easier to get traction.

10:48.58

Bob

You know, sometimes it's like you do this... this little joke and you do it in like a half hour, you're doing it in like two hours and it gets so much feedback and it goes so far. And then you put all this love into your long form comic and it's taken you like 16 hours to do this page and, and you put it on and it's like, yeah, so, so many or so fewer people interact with it.

11:13.86

Bob

But my, my, the way I look at it is, Any, like when I'm analyzing long form stories, you usually have a combination of literary elements. There's craft, there's intellectual stuff, there's world building, there's all this complexity.

11:33.21

Bob

And then it's interwoven with these sort of lizard brain moments that compel the emotion and drive things forward and create a sense of urgency and humor long, sorry, short form comedy.

11:49.50

Bob

is like all lizard brains.

11:51.57

Delphina

Hmm. Hmm.

11:51.77

Bob

And social media is geared for lizard brain and lizard brain always performs best on social media. And so it's just like, you know, it's not necessarily a marker of the comedy being better quality than your other stuff, it's that it's lizard brain.

12:10.32

Bob

Like, and same thing with, you know, if you're doing a lot of romances, very driven by lizard brain, a lot of horror, fear, suspense, and even cute stuff, very, very lizard brain.

12:19.55

Delphina

who

12:21.10

Bob

And so it's like, it's this instinctive reaction that people have. Even if they don't want to, you will find so many people who are ashamed that this like lowbrow joke made them laugh and they'll admit it in the Tumblr notes and stuff. But um But that's the thing about the lizard brain, people respond so strongly to it because it's almost involuntary and um it's emotionally manipulative. So you have to use it responsibly.

12:48.21

Delphina

Yes, absolutely. It's true. Like, everything is just... You only have so much time to process it. You only have like kind of your gut reaction to go by.

13:01.76

Delphina

And yeah, of course, like you see a cute video of a cat like everybody has that kind of lizard brain response to it because like that's that's what you know. And that's like it's not shameful to to tap into that unless like you're you're actually trying to incite something bad.

13:18.23

Delphina

Don't do that.

13:18.52

Bob

Yeah, yeah.

13:19.95

Delphina

Yeah. um So I do want to talk about too, because we've touched on it a little bit, like just the long form narrative, because I think there's also a side of like, okay, I don't necessarily want to do ah short form comedy work as my main project, but I do have elements of comedy. Comedy is a genre that I explore in my long form narrative.

13:42.69

Delphina

And um I just want to talk about how that's different from a short form or gag a day approach, like um in terms of how, how you work that into a long form narrative that, that has to make sense.

13:59.48

Bob

Yeah, that is such a good question because, yeah I write these like epic length supernatural fantasy, like, queer webcomics, but they are also extremely humor driven.

14:12.83

Bob

Like the plot is serious, but a lot of the moment by moment stuff is lighthearted or comedic or, and I do have some actual laugh out loud moments.

14:13.37

Delphina

Mm-hmm.

14:24.83

Bob

um And so there's a lot of balancing the tone. There's a lot of setting expectations upfront. um There's a lot of, um like like, I mean, i opened my webcomic Into the Smoke with a joke. I actually opened Demon of the Underground with a joke too.

14:45.31

Bob

um i I make my first jokes fairly early on so people know that this is kind of the expectation. And then, yeah and then when a serious moment comes, if it's meant to be truly serious,

14:54.47

Delphina

Yes.

15:01.02

Bob

You know, I let it be serious, but there is some, I wanna hear like your approach too, because I feel like there's a lot of juggling and like Sombulus is like, I feel like you do a really good job with that.

15:13.28

Delphina

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's absolutely balancing because I love puns. I love ah just kind of the surreal humor.

15:23.29

Delphina

I have an entire chapter about flying toasters.

15:23.86

Bob

Yeah.

15:26.16

Bob

I love that one.

15:26.31

Delphina

um Yeah. um And um and character but like character moments, like I kind of qualify that as as like, you know, this character, you know what they're going to react to do like so so what you have some of the humor is also based on like knowing the characters and enjoying the interaction between the characters um and i feel like you know i'll use my palette as an example you meet sydney she know you know she's stubborn and she doesn't know when to step back or leave things alone

16:04.39

Delphina

because she has this very overblown sense of justice. And that gets really awkward. And you know she gets her into hopefully humorous situations that she could totally get out of if she learned to chill.

16:16.71

Delphina

But she can't if she doesn't. And so um And so that's kind of a staple of humor for me is like, you can watch a character with grating or sometimes annoying traits.

16:28.77

Delphina

um And you can, you can make that work if at any moment they could step back and not double down, but they do choose to double down and the results are funny.

16:40.59

Bob

Yeah.

16:43.60

Delphina

um And it's a balance though, because you can also have a situation where somebody does that and like they succeed too much. And so the audience just gets annoyed or say they, they,

16:55.35

Bob

yeah

16:57.45

Delphina

They're just jerky to their friends and it's not fun to watch the interplay between them and the people around them. So you have to kind of balance that with more likable, sincere moments in my experience.

17:10.58

Delphina

um I also have two brother characters, one who is very strict with himself and one who is extremely irresponsible. um So if I play that too serious, it's either going to be annoying to watch the goofy one making problems while the responsible one cleans them up because nobody likes that situation.

17:30.15

Bob

yeah

17:30.29

Delphina

Like everybody's been in a situation where like somebody like did something stupid and you have you're stuck with the damage to clean it up um or you don't want to have a situation where one looks like they're bullying the other so I have to show that both the responsible one and the irresponsible one have those are double-edged swords they can both backfire I have to show that sometimes the risk taking pays off and sometimes playing it safe pays off and that they're both likable on some level so like

18:02.88

Delphina

nothing can get like too, too animosity driven. I feel like it's tricky. It's like, try to talk it out.

18:09.82

Bob

Yeah.

18:11.18

Delphina

It's tricky.

18:12.11

Bob

Yeah, no, I completely get that because like one of the one of my things is i am not a fan of mean-spirited humor. And I wanna say this as like, you know, there are people who are fans of mean-spirited humor.

18:20.57

Delphina

Yeah.

18:24.33

Bob

So I'm not saying like, don't write mean-spirited humor. I'm saying, know your audience. um Like if i were like, like I know that if I read Sambulus, I can count on the series not being mean-spirited.

18:38.56

Bob

And it's just kind of like where you have that trust. And so I think a lot of it is about being consistent with the flavor and type of humor you're dealing with.

18:51.19

Bob

Because if you set your expectation up front that, yeah, these characters are going to be kind of lightly ribbing each other a lot, or maybe really ribbing each other hard, you're going to attract readers who like that type of comedy.

19:03.79

Bob

And then... You know, if you're someone who has been writing darker comedy and then you suddenly switch to something that's a little too sincere, your readers are probably going to feel that it's not genuine feeling or that it's too saccharine or something like that.

19:19.29

Bob

But on the other hand, if you've built up this kind of more gentle, sincere type of comedy throughout your series, and then suddenly you have this really mean spirited joke, your readership is not going to find that joke funny because you haven't cultivated that type of readership.

19:35.69

Bob

So I feel like you're right, it's a lot of balancing and it's a lot of being consistent because comedy is also a style. So making sure that you're, you know, kind of delivering within the same range, I think is important.

19:50.75

Delphina

Yeah, absolutely. It's just, it's so easy to go into, like, ah this pattern of, like, you you make these jokes, and you make these jokes, and I feel like sometimes that's happening, too, like, when you, like, it can happen with romance or something, like, you're you're shipping these characters, and you're shipping these characters, and then they're, like, then, like,

20:11.03

Delphina

you make a like post like, well, they're not together. Why did you think you're together? It's like, well, I saw all things, saw these indicators that you wanted me to ship them.

20:17.11

Bob

Yeah.

20:19.48

Delphina

Like, I don't know.

20:20.18

Bob

yeah

20:20.64

Delphina

That's the kind of readership you attracted. And it's, it's so, um, I think the same is true for comedy. You do attract a certain readership depending on how you start out and how you continue.

20:32.33

Delphina

And, um, And yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of serious moments, especially right now in the plot of Zombulus. um But I do try to make a space where we can laugh and we can and like to remember what we enjoyed about the characters. And that helps us like root for them in the end, I think it is what I come back to.

20:53.17

Delphina

um Just being able to say like, yeah, I enjoy spending time with these characters. They're amusing me. And um yeah, it's... Gosh, it's so weird.

21:06.12

Bob

No, I totally get that, though, because even when you have those more serious moments, you ask, like, what is it that makes the story enjoyable at its core?

21:19.73

Bob

And I think balancing the more serious with the more comedic, um you know, a lot of people feel like you kind of have to keep them really separate.

21:33.30

Bob

I think there are ways that you can kind of weave them together as long as you're not, for example, using comedy to cheapen a really impactful moment or kind of diffuse it. Like if something really important happened, you kind of want to let that. Well, okay, depending on the type of story you're writing, if you want that moment to have resonance as a serious moment, then diffusing it with a joke can, you know, kind of ruin it. And likewise, you know, I've seen some, I think I've seen this more probably in like TV than in comics, but you'll see someone like...

22:13.17

Bob

make this really funny joke. And then like immediately after that, something just totally devastating happens. And that can be really effective to like jar and shake the reader. But it's one of those tricks that you can only do once because you have kind of broken trust there. And then none of your future jokes will land the same way after that one.

22:36.37

Bob

So if you're going to do something like that, you have to be so committed to it and so committed to that moment of really, jarring the reader because yeah there are some things where you can only do it once i think

22:48.60

Delphina

Yeah, absolutely. Like spoilers for Serenity whatever. But yeah, there are there are ways to use comedy that like sir to make people one of my favorite scenes in Zombulous really is is one where like im I have ah yeah just a character confronting and um ah like a kind of emotionally abusive like family member and he's like the jokey character and like this is when you find out that like the jokes are like just trying to avoid his real emotions and so you get to the point where he's

23:24.94

Bob

Oh yeah.

23:28.79

Delphina

But like his friend is asking, hey, are you OK? Like what? That was really bad. Like what's what's going on? And he's just like now he's trying to make jokes and they're not funny.

23:40.16

Delphina

And it's like, oh, oh, no.

23:41.18

Bob

Ah.

23:44.55

Delphina

OK, I get what's going on. And I think the readership really responded to that. It's one of my favorite scenes. um So that's something that you can set up.

23:55.04

Delphina

with a character that's comedic too, because I feel like that's the thing too. um A comedic character doesn't have to be shallow.

24:03.47

Bob

Yeah, exactly.

24:03.72

Delphina

um ah compete Like having that, there's a reason that we reached a comedy in real life um To like deal with our problems or describe their problems there's kind of black humor situations where you're using this to describe a serious issue and deal with it.

24:21.01

Delphina

And so that's an area that I think is fun to explore as well.

24:26.38

Bob

Definitely. Like, I feel like it's almost universally true that people who are very comedic and joke a lot are kind of using it as a shield for something.

24:38.55

Bob

And maybe the something they're shielding isn't so deep, but sometimes it's pretty deep. And I feel like that's so powerful in character development. Like, for me, I feel like I have fewer characters who themselves are like,

24:53.39

Bob

very funny and making jokes. i I probably do more like situational comedy, but, um but when you have a character who is that sort of lighthearted, you know, kind of jokey, I do have some of them actually.

25:06.78

Bob

And they do tend to be the ones with the darkest backstories, because I think that humor is sort of a defense mechanism sometimes. and also it just has the effect of soothing and self soothing. So it's something that you can use within your characters. And then you can also kind of use it with your readers be like, it's okay, it's okay, here's a joke.

25:27.88

Bob

you know

25:29.08

Delphina

Yeah, it's

25:29.28

Bob

But yeah.

25:31.29

Delphina

It's true. and I really resonate with those characters. I feel like um there's a level of sincerity that you can get out of those characters that only comes from getting to know them as like, you know, they're the funny one, they're the nice one.

25:45.55

Delphina

And, um and so it's, it's something that I encourage people to to look for and try to, to utilize.

25:45.62

Bob

Yeah.

25:55.36

Bob

Yeah, definitely.

25:57.06

Delphina

Yeah. So, um so yeah, ah like, and sometimes I'm looking at people or people come to me for advice about like, they're trying to make an effort to make either a full comedy genre comic or something that weaves comedic moments into the narrative.

26:14.53

Delphina

um But maybe the jokes are not as engaging or a character that they think is very funny is not landing with the readers. How, how do you go about troubleshooting that?

26:25.95

Bob

You know, that is an interesting question because there are so many different ways to look at it and ways to ask yourself, like, why did that not land?

26:38.53

Bob

And so for me, I actually like... I enjoy watching standup comedy and I listen to some like podcasts with comedians where they like talk about the craft and they talk about what they do and they talk about, you know, going to different shows and workshop, work and workshopping the joke, you know, trying like different tweaks on it with different audiences until they get it just right.

27:06.56

Bob

I feel like artists maybe don't really think about the idea that they can Rework a joke or rerelease something or refine it. And I think that's one thing. But before you do that, you kind of have to figure out where you went wrong in the first place.

27:22.53

Bob

And I think the first question I would ask is, um are you even sending it to the right audience? Like, is this a Tumblr joke that you're posting on Reddit and like the Reddit crowd is different or, you know, is it, you know, ah like, have you just not found the type of reader who reacts to it? So I kind of feel like a good first step is like, who are the types of people that you think should have found this funny?

27:53.32

Bob

And do they find it funny?

27:55.92

Delphina

Yeah.

27:56.13

Bob

And yeah, so like, that's my first thought. I have a few thoughts, but I want to hear, I want to hear what you think too.

28:03.64

Delphina

Sure. Yeah, I feel like a lot of comedy is setting up expectations.

28:05.49

Bob

Yeah,

28:08.59

Delphina

And so we all... um Like, you can but visualize like a kid in elementary school, five years old or something like that, and you say a funny word like butts or farts or whatever, and that's funny to them because they...

28:22.67

Bob

funny to me too, I guess.

28:25.19

Delphina

Yeah. But like the thing is that you weren't expecting me to say butts or farts are there because like that's not a thing I would normally say on a podcast.

28:33.36

Bob

Exactly.

28:34.35

Delphina

um And so similarly, when you're very young, you don't have the life experience to hear swearing yet.

28:34.51

Bob

Yeah.

28:41.73

Delphina

You've been told that you shouldn't swear. And so all your peers can't swear. None of your parents or responsible adults can swear and or use funny words. So when you hear it,

28:53.96

Delphina

like for the first time, for the first couple times, that's going to be funny to you because that defies your expectations. And so the older you get, the the more experience you get, of course, and the less that, you know butts and farts are going to be funny to you because, okay, I've 've heard that a million times at this point.

29:00.26

Bob

Mm-hmm.

29:12.07

Delphina

What's new? That's not necessarily funny to me.

29:13.92

Bob

Yeah. yeah

29:16.20

Delphina

So, yeah, Look for where you're setting up expectations. Of course, if you're using a real life sort of scenario or backdrop for your comic, um then you can draw from real life. But if you're making a fantasy or sci fi genre, you might have to do a little more.

29:35.01

Delphina

work to establish what's the normal here what's the and um and sometimes establishing hey this is normal in this world isn't that funny that it's normal not normal in our world is a form of humor as well so um so figuring that out i think there's um a comedy concept called the rules of threes

29:47.62

Bob

yeah

29:55.87

Delphina

um where like if you're setting up a joke, you say one thing and you say the next thing and those form a pattern and then you break the pattern in the third thing.

29:56.37

Bob

ah yeah

30:05.05

Delphina

And that's kind of an easy way to conceptualize. You're setting up the pattern by talking about this. We're talking about um dog yeah or owning a pet. So you're saying...

30:15.74

Delphina

Yeah, I know somebody who owns a dog and a cat and a sense of ennui. And so like, that's it. You weren't, you were expecting another, the third thing to be another animal, but I, I just threw some sort of curve vol ball at you with, know,

30:31.34

Delphina

the sense of one we like, oh, okay. um so that can be a way to approach the setting up of at least an individual joke, like on a micro scale, but also blowing that up to a macro scale and establishing what's normal, what's normal, then break the normal.

30:34.38

Bob

Okay.

30:48.85

Bob

It's funny because I feel like you've just illuminated to me in real time that I respond very strongly to the unexpected. That is also what I like to do in my comedy.

31:01.49

Bob

um it's i learned something today. That's so, so amazing.

31:07.38

Delphina

Yeah, it works.

31:07.87

Bob

But

31:08.54

Delphina

Like if you kind of think about it, like you you need at least two things to set up the pattern and then you break it

31:10.59

Bob

Yeah.

31:14.92

Bob

Yeah, yeah, that is so, so good. I never really, like, other than instinctively, I hadn't really picked up on that before. And it's absolutely true.

31:25.55

Bob

um That, wow. Yeah, so um one thing that I also kind of think about, sorry.

31:36.93

Bob

One second.

31:38.57

Delphina

No worries. I could pause it.

31:41.28

Bob

So one thing that I also think about a lot is how does the art style serve the joke or the comedic element of the situation and vice versa? Because the actual content, like if like, let's say that the joke is like what's actually being said by a character, that's so separate from like the art style and the setup and the pacing.

32:08.96

Bob

And how you treat the visuals might be what's holding back the actual substance of the joke.

32:15.26

Delphina

Hmm.

32:17.38

Bob

Like it's one of those things where you know, this is not a universal rule, but typically ah comedic ah works will be drawn in a simpler, less photorealistic, less beautiful type of style because beauty isn't typically all that funny.

32:36.59

Bob

um And, you know, there are ways, you know, I've i've seen some ah exceptions, but know. You know, there's some expectations when it comes to art style where, you know, if you go into a comic and you've got these like beautiful, like, you you know, beautiful compositions, these beautiful landscapes, this like, you know, these lens flares, you know, this dramatic lighting and so on.

33:05.54

Bob

People are going to go into that expecting... not a short form comedy. And obviously, you know, if you have a good punchline for that, go for it. But you know, if, if, if you just happen to draw in that style well, and you're trying to adapt it to a comedy comic, that's probably not gonna be as effective. So it's just something to think about.

33:28.74

Delphina

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we do work in a visual medium and being able to like, yeah, we come into this expectation of like, okay, this is going to be very serious toned. This is going to be um very, I should take it very seriously. And um you can subvert that for sure.

33:45.52

Bob

Mm-hmm.

33:45.54

Delphina

But you you do have to recognize that, yeah,

33:45.66

Bob

Mm-hmm.

33:49.74

Delphina

I think a lot of times ah if you're relying on the writing, you don't need that. And overcomplicating your art can also undermine visual gags, I feel like. You want the contrast if you're showing like actual slapstick humor where silly things are happening and it relies on the body.

34:12.94

Delphina

um What is the word? Body language, yes. um Yeah, if you're relying on body language, you need some very clear silhouettes. And that's where simpler art can kind of shine for you.

34:25.81

Delphina

um Even if you're looking at XKCD, XKCD has a lot of jokes and a lot of humor um with the stick figures because we can clearly see what's going on and they're not detracting from...

34:38.16

Delphina

What is probably more important than the art is the text. So we need a lot of text in a situation like XKCD. um They need a lot of room and they cannot have the art taken away from that.

34:52.76

Delphina

um And then, and again, it comes back to knowing your audience, knowing that your audience is kind of cerebral and like is going to be fine with reading a wall of text because they're, you know, in the science or math sorts of engineering paths.

35:09.80

Delphina

And so they're used to that. They're very literary. And so you can get away with that um versus maybe a crowd that would just want to have a simpler joke and a simpler visual.

35:22.84

Delphina

So um so yeah, that's absolutely something that you can work into um the language of your humor, I guess.

35:25.61

Bob

Yeah.

35:33.69

Bob

Yeah, and the interesting thing about XKCD is that I think because the jokes can be so complex, like that's why the visuals have to be almost even more simple.

35:44.90

Bob

Because it's like you have everything that is not integral to understanding the joke, you have to be able to get across so quickly. um You know, because a lot of comedy does have to do with the immediacy of it. And if your reader has to try to parse what they're looking at, that'll always take away from the joke.

36:06.61

Delphina

Yeah, for sure. It's very interesting to me too. um Just because I'm trying to think of something like, if XKCD had a very illustrative style, like it wouldn't work, right?

36:18.37

Bob

yeah Yeah, I probably not. I mean, like, maybe someone's genius enough to make it work, but I'm not.

36:23.83

Delphina

Yeah. um And I think um what you can do if you do have like kind of a more detailed style, I think that's where um like facial expressions can kind of shine, where you can kind of have a ah beat where somebody makes a face and you can really render that out in like, ah you know, maybe even a more grotesque way or like ah a very exaggerated way.

36:35.74

Bob

Mm-hmm.

36:47.55

Delphina

um That could kind of be fun for a moment. um But you do have to be consistent with that because to your earlier point, it's just like people aren't going to come in expecting that necessarily.

37:01.77

Delphina

ahead.

37:02.37

Bob

Yeah, well, it's funny. So yeah, it's funny because my style does tend to be a little more ah realistic and serious depending on which of my comics you're reading.

37:04.80

Delphina

yeah go ahead

37:14.83

Bob

And when I do get to a funny moment, I dumbed down my style a little bit. And, you know, those panels tend to follow comedy conventions a little more. It's kind of like you know You see it a lot in manga where like people will kind of like to snap into those other like very exaggerated, kind of like not exactly chibi, but like the like these- i don't I don't know if there's a word for that.

37:37.64

Delphina

it's simplified like yeah

37:38.72

Bob

Yeah, it's simplified. Yeah. and and And you have the flexibility is in long form to jump back and forth. And you can actually even do it pretty abruptly. And if you execute it with like good pacing, um it it can be really effective. And that's just a matter of like, you know, read it, reread it, give it to beta readers, see what other people think.

38:02.53

Bob

um Getting that external feedback before you actually publish it is very helpful. Especially if you've got the nice beta readers who will leave their, there like laughter in the notes and stuff. But, um but yeah, and the other thing with long form is that, you know, not every joke that like I write down everything in my notes, like if I come up with something really funny, I write it down because I don't want to forget it

38:13.84

Delphina

Yeah.

38:28.19

Bob

Sometimes I'll go back to it and it's like, oh, this joke just doesn't actually fit in the scene that I wanted to put it in. And that's devastating for me because you can't tell me not to make a joke. It's not fair.

38:39.12

Bob

So I also don't want to ruin the story and I don't want to tell a bad story. So you know, that's where the beautiful and lovely Patreon comes in or, you know, where you just have like, you know, wherever you're putting your little side stuff, you can do a little one-off mini on the side that isn't a part of that other scene and isn't now going to ruin that other scene.

38:50.78

Delphina

Yes.

39:02.55

Bob

And maybe even you can make a little bit of extra money for people who want to see that funny bit. um Or you can like, you know, once you get like five or 10 of them, you put them in a collection and sell it on itch or something like that.

39:14.19

Bob

So yeah, there, there are ways that you can use those one-off jokes. And because jokes are often easier to package, you can kind of take that moment and throw it on social media and get people excited. Like that's how I discovered how the house husband was. I saw so many of these little one-off, you know, jokey scenes from, and I was like, okay, this, this guy's consistently funny. It's like, I, I, I have to read this.

39:42.30

Bob

And so there are things that you can do with a funny little scene, even if it doesn't fit into the main comic, you can find another way to tell that joke.

39:53.69

Delphina

Yeah, that's so smart. And I feel like um recognizing when a joke is not working is going to interrupt the narrative and perhaps being distracting or annoying to the reader is like a skill in and of itself.

40:09.11

Delphina

Because I feel like if you're trying to cram jokes in you can undermine the character relatability process.

40:09.41

Bob

Mm-hmm.

40:16.56

Delphina

for the reader and that' that's just going to disengage the reader. So you need to kind of... ah figure out the pacing, figure out, like, keep the good stuff, like maybe shift the other stuff to the side a side Patreon or a little book or something like that.

40:37.45

Delphina

um To your point, they're great for advertising. I know Phantomarine does a lot of that too, where there's just some silly things that they don't belong in the comic.

40:43.33

Bob

yeah.

40:46.61

Delphina

They shouldn't be in the comic because they're not working with the narrative. um But they have that lizard brain appeal and they're going to work really nicely on social media and get people curious about these characters if they're consistently funny.

40:53.33

Bob

yeah

41:00.46

Delphina

um And I feel like, um yeah, that's that's the thing to do. If you have these jokes in your heart, if you have these these things and you're making this long form comic like um don't throw them out.

41:12.55

Delphina

Yeah. Yeah.

41:16.89

Bob

Yeah, never throw out a good joke. It's such a waste.

41:19.99

Delphina

I know. um and But the thing is, too, like if you're asking for beta reader help, sometimes I feel like um if they're your friends, they might tell you something is funny when something isn't or they won't be able to troubleshoot like necessarily like...

41:30.78

Bob

Oh.

41:34.97

Delphina

Why isn't this joke working? Like it's complex. Like we can talk about this for hours. We've been talking about this for, for a while. And sometimes it's, it's hard to diagnose, I guess, why a joke isn't funny.

41:46.42

Bob

Yeah.

41:48.49

Delphina

um So yeah I'm not sure what to do about that. You got to practice, you got to get some candid reader interactions and just kind of watch for people's reactions.

42:01.74

Delphina

Sometimes I feel like.

42:03.36

Bob

Yeah, a lot of comedy is being brave enough to get the feedback from people you don't know and being willing to have people say, like, i don't get it.

42:14.39

Bob

um Like one of my one of my most popular ah mini comics on Tumblr right now, it's just started going around again. It's about rock climbing. And like, there's like a million, like not a million, it's not a million, it's 30,000. But it's like, there's like a lot of tags of people just like,

42:33.71

Bob

like typing their laughter hysterically in the tags. And then there's also like the most visible comment comment the most visible comment on it is someone like, wait, what's going on? I don't get it.

42:46.57

Bob

And so like, even with a successful joke, you're gonna have people who don't get it. And, you know, seeing like, one of the things I actually love about Tumblr is that you do see that interaction in the tags because tags are like what they don't really expect the creator to be reading or at least, you know, it's a little bit more low key than actually commenting on something.

43:08.76

Bob

So you kind of get, yeah, like a more direct and honest, like, oh, OK, this is what was really going through their mind.

43:09.33

Delphina

Yes.

43:16.21

Bob

And um like there's one comic I had blow up where it was about melting butter. And like, you know, most people it was is kind of like a surreal horror comedy comic and so like most of the people were responding to that and then you get some people who are like like why are you melting an entire stick of butter and i'm like okay fine you've never made brownies before i get it it's fine but like but you know there's there's gonna be some people who don't like you know connect to the actual point of the joke and that's all right it's it's like as long as enough people as long as you're getting the sense that

43:54.77

Bob

the joke is landing among the people it's supposed to land with, you shouldn't take a few outliers as a sign that the joke isn't landing because there will always be some people who don't get it.

44:06.26

Bob

But if you're mostly getting like the I don't get it or if the post just doesn't go anywhere because no one's interacting with it, you know, that could be because people just didn't see it. That could be, you know, for and for numerous reasons. It could also be because people didn't like to get the joke.

44:25.60

Bob

So that's where you have to actually take it out to someone and be like, hey, do you get this? And it's really awkward to have to ask that sort of thing. But if you are trying to workshop a joke,

44:38.03

Bob

then it's just like any other sort of beta reading and any or other sort of critique. um And, you know, jokes can sometimes feel a little more personal, but, you know, just, ah it's just one of those things you gotta, gotta get the thick skin for.

44:55.83

Delphina

Yeah, it's one of those things.

44:57.95

Bob

up

44:58.35

Delphina

Yep. I'm going to hit pause.

45:02.54

Bob

Yeah, and on the subject of like, if your post just didn't get seen by anyone, and maybe that's the reason why it's not getting traction. ah Another thing you want to consider is like, what, what platform are you posting it on? And is it like an algorithmic platform? Because I mentioned that I do a lot of my humor posting on Tumblr, where I also post my long form webcomic.

45:24.18

Bob

And because of the way Tumblr works, my readers for the most part will still see, you know, both types of my posts. But if you're on something like Instagram on your, ah if you're on something that's more algorithmic, that's more making the decisions about what your followers see and don't see, chances are, if you're, if you're combining different types of content, like, you know, you're doing your art, but you're also posting your cat pics and everyone just loves your cat so much.

45:54.20

Bob

Well, the, but the algorithm is gonna think that your successful posts are the cat posts, and then they're gonna punish your other stuff. So it's a little tricky if you're balancing and combining you know multiple types of things, and you just have to know which platforms you can do that on.

46:12.50

Bob

ah And just keep that in mind as another example of like, well, why didn't this little bit land? I mean, maybe it's just, maybe the algorithm is making it go to the wrong audience.

46:24.58

Delphina

Yeah, for sure. And like, there's so many things that we could talk about that we have talked about, about our algorithms and like what they do and not to let the numbers get to you sometimes.

46:31.07

Bob

yeah

46:38.06

Delphina

But just um absolutely in terms of comedy, too, because that virality has the potential to happen on um on comedic posts like that's something that you need to to take into consideration as well but um yeah so think we're just about good on time so um i'm gonna wrap this up because yeah i think we've talked about a lot of fun comedy stuff um

46:56.03

Bob

Exactly.

47:11.44

Bob

We've had some sensible chuckles.

47:13.58

Delphina

Sensible chuckles, um some good surprises and stuff.

47:13.62

Bob

Yeah.

47:17.62

Delphina

And um and yeah, it can get very scientific. Like you think comedy is easy because it's lighthearted and stuff, um but it can be um a little bit of a nut to crack.

47:31.10

Delphina

So you gotta um you got to work on it and workshop and get feedback.

47:31.56

Bob

yeah

47:37.13

Delphina

And like anything else, it's a skill that you can build. um So with that, I have been Delphina. You can find my webcomic, Sambulis, at Sambulis.com.

47:51.73

Bob

And I have been Bob and you can find my web comics at into the smoke comic.com and demon of the underground.com.

48:00.35

Delphina

Woo! Okay. Thank you so much. Go be funny! Now!

48:03.84

Bob

Now do it. You have to.

48:05.29

Delphina

Oh! You must! All right. Stop.

In this Episode:

• What does your buffer look like? Do you always stick to your ideal buffer, or have you ever run out?
• What benefits has having a buffer had for you? Are there any drawbacks?
• What is your advice to someone who is trying to make a healthy buffer, but can’t seem to manage to keep it going?

----

Episode Release Date: September 10, 2025

Episode Credits:

Ally Rom Colthoff (Varethane) - she/they, chirault.sevensmith.net wychwoodcomic.com

Christina Major (Delphina) - she/her, sombulus.com

Kristen Lee (Krispy) - she/they, https://ghostjunksickness.com https://www.lunarblight.com

----

Transcription

00:02.50

Delphina

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we're going to be talking about buffers. I’m Delphina, I use she/her pronouns, and I make the webcomic Sombulus.

00:15.72

Krispy

And I’m Krispy, I use the pronouns she/they. and I make the webcomics Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight

00:22.79

Varethane

And I’m Varethane, I use she/they pronouns, and I make the webcomics Chirault and Wychwood.

00:29.69

Delphina

Okay, so we're not here to tell you how to live your life or make your comic. And if you want to post every comic page as soon as you're done with it, that's valid. But a buffer of comic pages can help you keep your comic on a steady release schedule and set healthy reader expectations and prevent burnout or stress during the times where you can't be at your drawing desk as often. So today we are going to talk about buffers.

00:56.15

Delphina

And so I’m just gonna throw this out to folks. What does your buffer look like for your comic? And is it hard to stick to your ideal buffer? Or have you ever run out? I'll throw it to you, Krispy.

01:09.65

Krispy

Hehehehehehe. I’m really proud of our buffer. So obviously we have the advantage of the fact that like Ghost Junk Sickness and Lunar Blight—we're a team. There's two of us, we do all the equal work. I said this a million times in Screen Tones but, you know, we both draw, we both write, both you know thumbnail, whatever, so that makes our buffer absolutely long as heck. So we usually have a buffer for about a year and a half. It's usually around that long. Like it could take either a half year or go longer.

01:45.06

Krispy

But how we work is that we do a whole entire chapter at a time because it helps with flow and stuff like that.

01:55.34

Krispy

So, the buffer gets made, we do everything in steps. So we write it. And then we kind of go back and forth with it. Then we do the whole thumbnail in a whole step.

02:07.95

Krispy

And then we do all the pencils in one step, you know, so on and so forth, so that everything's kind of cohesive. And with that, because we finished the entire chapter at a time, it makes our buffers quite...

02:21.15

Krispy

Buff. So it feels good to have something that helps us balance like the other things. So the other thing about being in a team is that we also really want to keep doing more comics. So this helps our kind of work

02:40.17

Krispy

ethic or our output more because we're constantly doing things on the sides, and I'll just be open with the fact that like comics are not our full time jobs, and because like our work ethic, our output is that, you know, Space and I like to work on a bunch of projects at the same time, so we're constantly going and, you know, being open about the fact that comics is not our full-time job. We have day jobs and stuff like that, so fitting in a buffer that works in tandem with the things that

03:23.25

Krispy

make us money and you know comics to keep us happy with that. I think it's just really important because when things kind of cut down to the wire and you're releasing a page per update, to me personally that's too much the pressure gets too intense, and when there's a lot of pressure I feel the burnout. I don't know, how do you feel about that, Delphie?

03:47.55

Delphina

Yeah, it is. It's a lot of burnout, like kind of being to the wire. And I think that's a very good system. So like a chapter is about a year for you or…?

03:58.78

Krispy

It depends. I think a chapter... cause like they range right from like 45 pages to like 90. It's like, okay, there's no specific page count.

04:13.39

Krispy

But something that's 90 pages will take us like almost a year to get through. And by the time that like, you know, we finished it.

04:20.33

Krispy

So it takes us about maybe two, three months to do something like that. And that is a buffer for about six to eight months. And then we'll probably be working on pages still in between that. So the buffer just keeps growing.

04:34.02

Delphina

Yeah, but that's a good point to have one cohesive chunk of stuff, whatever that looks like for you as a buffer so that you can have that space and you have it all to look over.

04:47.83

Delphina

And especially if you're doing sort of this batch process that you described, that makes a lot of sense. I’m going to throw it to you, Thane. What does your buffer situation look like? How does that work?

05:01.20

Varethane

Well, right now, my buffer situation looks pretty, pretty all right. It definitely was not always that way, though, because when I first was getting started doing webcomics with Chirault, all the way back when dinosaurs roamed the Internet and I was working on the beginnings of Chirault, I was in school at the time.

05:23.44

Varethane

And the comic was something that I just would bring everywhere with me in my sketchbooks. And I would just be kind of drawing it all the time. And I had a concept of what webcomics were.

05:34.58

Varethane

But the field was still pretty new at the time. So I knew that they would have things like update schedules. But I didn't really see that as something that I needed to stress too much about. So I was making pages in big batches.

05:50.36

Varethane

And then I would just post all of the pages as soon as I finished them. And I was working at a pretty blistering speed during those early days. Just like, I don't know, fueled by a lot of caffeine and obsession.

06:02.64

Varethane

So my homepage at the time, the way I was manually coding the whole thing with HTML.

06:08.32

Varethane

So every time I added a page, I would have to make a new HTML page and upload it and re-upload everything else to make sure all the links connected to each other. And I would upload batches of like anywhere between four and like eight pages, like, in a day.

06:24.48

Varethane

And then like three days later, it would be like, there's another four pages. And then like, you know, three days after that, be like, here's seven pages. And on the homepage, I had this little text box where I would update like,

06:36.17

Varethane

I added four pages. And then beside that, if it had been less than like a week, I would be like, and I added another four pages. And so it's like this little pastiche of like, I've done this many, this many, this chunk.

06:47.17

Varethane

Obviously that pace was not sustainable. I think I kept up that... weird approach for probably about six to eight months. And then, and then I was like, okay, you know, webcomics have these update schedule things, maybe I should also have one of those.

07:04.91

Varethane

And maybe I should not just dump every page that I make immediately and start saving them because at some point in the future, maybe I won't be able to make pages this fast anymore.

07:16.88

Varethane

So I set it to a three times a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule. And like, I think I did that—I started the comic in May. And then I implemented the update schedule in like August or so.

07:31.57

Varethane

And it was a good thing that I did because come December of the same year, school was picking up and everything. And surprise, I couldn't make pages that fast anymore. So having that buffer of pages from when I was like, you know, putting them out like crazy, and then I would update them more slowly, it kept the whole comic like going while I was, you know, holidays, school things, tons of homework. And then eventually, you know, it kind of provides a little bit of a space between like your actual production and what goes up on the website, which can give you time for whenever life does anything.

08:13.46

Varethane

And it's really handy for that for that kind of thing because after, I think I was keeping up with the Chirault schedule for a good few years in that initial period, but then there was a point where I was, I went on an exchange program and got really busy, and I was like, okay, I can't actually work on the comic at all for like a year, and having the buffer let it keep updating while I was kind of off doing other things. And so I didn't really have to put the comic on any formal hiatuses

08:47.44

Varethane

really at all. I think there was one period in 2012 where Chirault actually went on a full hiatus for probably four or five months before coming back.

09:00.20

Varethane

And ever, kind of ever since that initial decision, I've always tried to have some amount of stored pages ahead of what's going up on the website.

09:11.91

Varethane

There was a period in the finale of Chrault where I started kind of running low on my buffer. And I was actually starting to make pages within anywhere between like two or three days to a week before they were going to go up on the internet.

09:27.35

Varethane

And it definitely does feel a lot more stressful. Like you, you feel like you have less control over what goes into the page because you just, you got to get it out right now. So like, okay, what if you, if you wanted to spend more time on the writing or massaging out like little story chunks or anything like, okay, well you can't cause it needs to go up like in two days

09:46.43

Varethane

or tomorrow. So when I finished Chirault and got started on Wychwood, I really wanted to have a much healthier buffer. So I actually finished the first three chapters in their entirety.

10:00.22

Varethane

And I was like keeping track of exactly how fast they were for me to make. Like, OK, so if this is when I started, this is when I finished the chapter, just to make sure that like I could set an update schedule that would actually reflect the pace at which I could make the pages because my intent is to basically be making pages and posting them at roughly the same rate, but I want to have at least like a minimum of three to six months in between my current pages and whatever's up on the website.

10:33.43

Varethane

And for a while, I was like a good year and a half ahead of what was up on the website. It's gotten a bit lower since then. And it kind of fluctuates a bit. I did actually reduce Wychwood’s update schedule to once a week. It started, I think when I launched, it was twice a week.

10:50.73

Varethane

And I've reduced it a bit just because life has gotten crazy. So but that's allowed me to keep my buffer pretty healthy. And another nice side benefit is that having all these pages stored up means that I can use them as Patreon rewards because people can read significantly farther ahead if they pledge to me, basically. So I like having them around for that.

11:17.07

Varethane

It's like, by the way, there's a lot more story.

11:19.78

Delphina

Yes, that's so smart, because I feel like it does both things, right? It gives you the buffer, but then it gives you like, okay, if you really want to read ahead, if you really want to, like, here's the tier where you can pledge to make that happen. And I feel like of the Patreons I hear about for webcomic artists,

11:40.00

Delphina

that early page tier is the one that that really is engaging to readers too. So like, it's good for everybody basically kind of having that sort of buffer. And I think too, just in terms of like,

11:57.27

Delphina

starting your comic because it's interesting because you've had Chirault and you had Wychwood and you were able to take a little time to figure out what you want to do with Wychwood and you had that experience of Chirault to build on. I do feel like the storage of pages that you have before you launch, that is sort of a buffer, but it's not quite the same thing.

12:22.85

Delphina

If you're If you're coming in cold and you're still building a readership and stuff, I feel like that burst of pages or whatever you start out with isn't necessarily the same thing as a buffer, but it'll help you for sure just figure things out. I think that's the thing for me too, thinking about my buffer experiences,

12:45.99

Delphina

is that I want space to figure things out. To Thane's point, I want space to figure out the writing. And also if I want to put a little extra oomph, a little extra time into any one page, I'll feel like I have the space to do that instead of, well, the deadline is right now.

13:03.25

Delphina

But I do feel like I am maybe slightly more deadline driven than you all because you're talking about year and a half buffers, year buffers. Like I can do a month.

13:15.20

Delphina

I have a month of buffer at any given time. That's good for me. And right now I don't even have that. So I am kind of feeling the pain and the stress of that is not good.

13:27.22

Delphina

But I am very deadline driven and I need to know that like, okay, there is some urgency here or else I’m going to find other things to do with my time. I’m a busy person. And so, so I do like having a slightly smaller buffer. I feel like that works okay for me.

13:49.02

Delphina

And it also keeps me connected with I guess what the community is experiencing or what my readers are focusing on, like I can, I can kind of be in the same place as opposed to mentally having moved on from that section of the story like a year ago.

14:10.49

Delphina

So I don't know. I think it's a little more fun, possibly a little more stressful, but I do feel like I do need at least a month and that does help with Patreon rewards. It helps with keeping things on track and being able to make edits and, the couple times where I've run out of buffer and I've just been doing it week to week have just been, yeah, you definitely get burned out very fast, especially when you get to the middle parts of your story where things are coming together and you have to figure things out. You don't want to be contradicting stuff that you did at the beginning.

14:52.99

Delphina

It's just, I feel like it gets harder the further in you go with a long form story. And that just makes the buffer all the more critical. With that, I’m just gonna ask what other kinds of benefits does a buffer have for you? Are there any drawbacks that people would have with having a buffer that you would warn people about?

15:22.50

Delphina

I'll throw it to you, Krispy.

15:24.75

Krispy

Definitely that point that you made about being mentally away from the story. So Ghost Junk Sickness is done as this episode has been recorded. I finished it with Space last year, actually. And it's still being updated to the site.

15:44.21

Krispy

it's actually, the day that it's being recorded now is the final chapter is being uploaded, I think it's about 100 pages. Regardless, like you know, there's still a ways to go but I’m finished it, so it's done for me but it's not done for a lot of readers who read it for free on the website. So I catch myself being like, “Oh right, that's happening.

16:11.47

Krispy

Oh, right, that's happening there. Oh, that's interesting.” And I guess not being as engaged in the moment. I think the other thing that kind of is a little different for me in this case, though, is the fact that we're doing two comics at the same time.

16:28.20

Krispy

So I think it's kind of hard to be in the same moment for both of them unless we want to risk a little bit more burnout being that close in page uploads. So I think that we have to be way much more strategic about the stuff that we produce and the pace that we do it in. Because I personally have had, you know, very rough time in the last couple of years.

16:55.66

Krispy

And that buffer has absolutely saved my biscuits. You know, there were times where I couldn't draw for a while because of, you know, life happening.

17:06.83

Krispy

And having that buffer was a godsend. Like it helped so, so much and it didn't feel bad. And one of the things that I feel like Space and I can openly brag about is the fact that we've never, ever missed an update from Ghost Junk Sickness in the 10 plus years that it's being uploaded to the site.

17:25.81

Krispy

And, you know, I think buffers and, you know, definitely the work ethic for that. And that's, it's just why we're always kind of working ahead. And I guess that's a little like, hmm, we're always thinking of, well, something bad might happen.

17:41.55

Krispy

And that's kind of kept us paranoid to continue. But, you know, I’m fond of it. It's something that's helped us as far as, you know, creating other stories, because that's our biggest thing is that we don't want to just be making one webcomic, we have a lot of comic ideas. And,

18:00.98

Krispy

buffers are really great to kind of balance that creative stuff because we've talked about this in other episodes where sometimes you'll have like the brain space for certain steps in creating, because obviously comics, lot of work. You have like the writing stage, the drawing stage, thumbnail stage, you have all these stages but they require different kind of brain waves yeah

18:24.81

Delphina

Energies, yeah.

18:25.93

Krispy

Yeah, to get into it. And I find that having that buffer there, it helps me focus on what I have space for that day. And I don't feel like, okay, I have to get the inking done this day because literally I need pages by tomorrow. Like we've never run into that. We used to in our old days.

18:45.67

Krispy

And I could say this is like a comic veteran. We've been there where it was like, you know, we used to do the pages a week. And then upload them as I go. And it was fun.

18:57.43

Krispy

It was very fun. Because you are pretty engaged. And I guess like the other drawback is the fact that, like,

19:06.41

Krispy

This is a Krispy personal thing. And I guess like, you know, a bit of an acknowledgement to what's going on in the larger kind of media aspect as far as TV shows and stuff like that, where they don't want the readers to kind of guess what's going on. They have their pulse on the reactions too much. And sometimes I find that creators do that too much where they're paying too much attention. They're like, oh, people guess that, I have to write it out or something like that.

19:33.01

Krispy

That brings me no joy. I’m just like, my comic, our story is the way that it is because it is. Unless there's something in there that's like, wow, that was completely dumb and it makes no sense or whatever. Like, obviously that's going to get fixed because webcomics are amazing and that can happen.

19:50.74

Krispy

But, you know, I want the true intent of the story from us to get to the readers without those changes while seeing them live react.

20:01.90

Krispy

So that's something that we don't take part in just because we do the buffer and we work very, very far ahead. But I don't know if that's a detriment. I don't know. How do you feel about that?

20:13.28

Delphina

I don't know. It's like, because I know there are specific comic formats that like, I don't know if Homestuck started that way. But the project that he did before Homestuck was like Problem Sleuth.

20:25.32

Delphina

And that was reader submitted questions or directions.

20:28.01

Krispy

hmm.

20:30.46

Delphina

So they actually did have to wait until they got a reader response to go in a certain direction. And yeah, that feels like a type of animal that would be hard to maintain the energy for

20:46.41

Delphina

over a longer period of time. It feels like it would be a fun one shot or like a smaller project. But the energy investments to that degree might be tricky.

20:59.81

Delphina

And then if you're not doing that kind of story at all, if you're just doing a normal thing and you're like but wait what if the readers like this character and I need to put more of him in because they're the ones that people are reacting to, I think that's a quick way to lose your vision and like kind of doubt yourself and your direction and maybe lead you down the path of following the squeakiest wheel because it's getting the grease, right?

21:30.77

Delphina

So yeah, even though you might have 100 silent readers who really wanted to read what you were already doing, maybe the one guy who was loud in the comments is getting more attention and you're misinterpreting that as the direction that everybody wanted you to go in.

21:54.59

Krispy

Exactly, exactly. I think about it like that. It’s something that, it kept me humble creating because it's just like, you know, I think it's a lonely time, most of the time, creating comics. There's always that discussion of like, I wish my comic had more comments and stuff like that.

22:07.50

Krispy

So if you do like someone's comic... definitely tell them, hey, it's pretty cool. I like what you're doing or whatever. But with that, it's also good to remind yourself that you know at the end of the day, you've got to do it for you.

22:21.29

Krispy

And you know what is your vision? What are you trying to say? And you can get lost in the sauce of like, following the squeaky wheels and changing updates to kind of match that so, I don't know. I don't know if I’m personally missing out because sometimes you can get a lot of traction from that when you're engaging directly with the readers and being like I’m gonna add this silly guy and he's gonna be such a big part because you guys like this silly guy or I don't know, you know, I’m just gonna go on this tangent, we're gonna pause the main story because, you know, you liked the silly guy or something. I don't know. And some readers will be really into that. Me, not so much.

23:04.52

Varethane

It's funny because this whole thing, to go to go on even more of a tangent and sound a bit of a nerd alert, it reminds me of what happens in a lot of manga productions where the publishers will put out polls at the end of every major story arc to be like, who's your favorite character?

23:20.43

Varethane

And like there's rules in, I’m talking like Shonen anime specifically, like stuff for Shonen Jump. The contracts with the artists stipulate that they've got to introduce this many new characters in each of the arcs.

23:34.74

Varethane

And then at the end of the arc, they'll determine who was the favorite of the new character. And that one's gonna get to stick around because they want to expand their roster and have more stuff to make merchandise of.

23:45.57

Varethane

And so if you see those at the end of some books, like volumes of manga, there'll be artwork drawn, like here's the fan poll, like here's all the rankings of the different characters, like which one's number one? Are there any like, you know, which one is your favorite?

24:02.33

Varethane

They do this whole poll system.

24:06.23

Delphina

Yeah, it's very rooted in capitalism and very like, I don't know, man, I don't—webcomics are free. We gotta keep this free. We gotta keep people like having their own vision. I think that's important. But yeah, buffers.

24:22.98

Varethane

Buffers, right.

24:24.16

Delphina

Yeah. What do you think about buffers, Thane? What benefits and drawbacks do you see in buffers?

24:32.20

Varethane

Uh, well, I think I mentioned earlier the thing about Patreon where having the buffer lets me kind of leverage it as like a reward, because it's not going to go up on my website all at once, but people can still read it.

24:45.40

Varethane

And I really like, I have a little discord section where people can like, like the people who are in that tier can talk. And when I post a new chapter, it's really neat seeing like the theories and speculation and stuff like that, like ahead of time and just be like, oh, see.

25:02.75

Varethane

And it gives me a little bit of an advanced kind of notice on like, okay, like how are things reading? Like what are the things that confuse people? While I was in those early stages, I’m doing a bit less of it now just because there's now so much comic that asking for detailed feedback is, it's a lot to expect of people at this point. So I don't do it as much.

25:25.89

Varethane

But in the early chapters, part of why I was really trying to work ahead very far was so that I could share those chapters with people and have them like read through it and just kind of let me know like where things are maybe not reading or like if things are confusing, just basically have a critique and feedback thing available ahead of time before I put it all up on the website. And it starts feeling like it's too late to edit, even though I know it's not actually too late to edit.

25:56.67

Varethane

When you do make major changes to something already live, it definitely has a different kind of, you sort of have to warn people like, by the way, this thing that you read, it's a little different now. So keep an eye out.

26:08.24

Varethane

So being able to kind of work out those things and make revisions to the story, there have been several times where I had a big buffer built up and I was working on more pages and then I changed something in a future scene or adjusted my outline, or I looked back at and at an older scene and I was like, you know, something about this is bothering me. I think I need to change things. It's like not exciting enough, or it's confusing, or like I just, I could add some juice.

26:36.90

Varethane

And I would go in to, and my buffer, like pages, a scene that was completely finished or could be completely finished, but I just want to make it better. And I could totally edit that.

26:48.77

Varethane

And I don't have to worry about what it's going to look like, on the website, re-uploading pages and then like making it a whole thing. Like “it's changed by the way.” So the only people who see that sort of thing now are my patrons.

27:03.19

Varethane

And one other point where I really, like my buffer was like, it served a very specific practical purpose was the finale of Chirault. I had been working on...

27:19.04

Varethane

Like there was a period where pages got really hard and I was doing them like, you know, within a couple days. And then I, once I started planning for kind of that final, like the conclusion of the series and I knew I was going to print it,

27:32.27

Varethane

and one of the things that I did deliberately was I tried to push my buffer ahead by at least like a month or so. I think it was more like two months,

27:45.07

Varethane

so that I could have enough pages to keep updating the website while I was doing the Kickstarter for the final book. And I wanted to launch the Kickstarter after the book was basically done.

27:58.09

Varethane

So I needed to have all the pages finished before I launched that. And the buffer made sure that I could do that. I didn't want to be running a Kickstarter while my comic was not actually updating because that's where it's one of the main places where people find the campaign in the first place.

28:15.35

Varethane

So if that was actually stopped and not updating at all, I feel like I would have lost touch with a lot of readers. And to kind of go into the other side of things, like the drawbacks, what Delphie was saying earlier about needing that deadline and the immediacy, I feel like when I have a long buffer, my brain definitely also works that way. So I have to kind of trick myself and be like,

28:42.75

Varethane

okay, well, it's not going to go up on the website for like, you know, a few months to a year. But like, I do want to update, I want to keep updating like for Patreon, I try to find ways of keeping myself going, but definitely the urgency of knowing that it needs to be like the actual for real for real hard deadline is so far away.

29:08.57

Varethane

It definitely has made my production rate slow down a bit now that I’m out of that initial kind of early project honeymoon phase where all the energy was keeping me going. So it's something that I've been, that I, I have been thinking about and I’m

29:26.89

Varethane

debating increasing my update pace to twice a week just to get like, I don't know, sort of force myself to grapple with that a little sooner.

29:38.21

Varethane

I feel like the once-a-week is nice and easy. I could definitely keep that up. There's lots of once a week webcomics, but I really want to go back to kind of twice a week. And I feel like at a certain point, that's going to start pushing me to make the, to step up the production again.

29:57.31

Delphina

Yeah, I’m in the same place. Like I went to once a week, but I think my story reads better at twice a week. And I’m just like, oh, gosh, I got to build it back up. I got to figure out a way to get my buffer back so I can have that space. And I guess that's just kind of leads me into my last thing. Like, what's your advice to someone who's trying to make a healthy buffer of pages,

30:24.30

Delphina

but they've lost it for some reason, life happened or whatever or they never had it in the first place and for one reason or another they can't seem to manage to keep it going? What do you do?

30:39.63

Krispy

Dun, dun, dun. That's hard. That's a hard question to ask or answer because everybody works different, right? Like, you know, Thane talking about having that honeymoon energy that keeps you going and making a lot of the comics really fast. Like I see that so much in the webcomic community. I mean, like I’m people, I've done that. Like, you know, when you're starting a new project you're like, let's go. It definitely helps.

31:04.68

Krispy

But, you know, gauging for the long kind of run, It's difficult. As far as what we do, a lot of planning helps with the way that I work with Space.

31:19.69

Krispy

Because we're able to gauge the length and the work required to pull off the stories that we want to do. Like this doesn't stop like rewrites or additional scenes that we're putting into the story either. Like just because we're so far ahead, it doesn't mean that we're never going to touch anything that we've created.

31:37.71

Krispy

This doesn't mean that we're going to stop anything, like touching any of the work that we've uploaded or anything like that. but it does mean that, you know, we're not as connected to a lot of things,

31:53.61

Krispy

as far as you know engaging with the readers, but building that up and keeping it going, I’m gonna have to say this but a lot of it comes to that self kind of discipline that you need to make comics happen, and figuring out what do you like about your process and what do you not like about your process. I think I said this in a previous episode already but if you do not like specifically this one part of comics, you don't have to do it. If you hate inking, you don't have to ink your comic. I’m giving you permission to throw that step out. You do not have to ink your comic. If you absolutely hate that step, I don't know why you're inking

32:37.59

Krispy

or anything like that. And that'll help, you know, get the process done a little bit easier and pave that way to make more buffers. I think it's just figuring it out and seeing if comics and that process actually works for you too. A lot of it is figuring it out. It took us two years to figure out...

33:01.41

Krispy

two to four years actually, it was a long time to figure out what actually works while we were creating Ghost Junk Sickness, and that just made us more powerful making the other comics as we go along. Just, you know, understanding how we create how fast we do it. And I don't like talking about speed because I don't like giving that advice to people is that you have to be fast or anything like that. I just, I want people who listen to this episode to walk away knowing that a large part of creating comics is how you engage with creating comics. It's just how you engage with the process of all of these steps.

33:44.66

Krispy

And if it works for you, if it doesn't, how do you work around it? How do you cut it out? And, you know, it won't make it as daunting because I see that a lot. I see that a lot of like, ugh, I’m in the thumbnail stage or ugh, I have to write. And I’m just, why are you beating yourself up so much with this? It sounds miserable.

34:08.34

Delphina

Yeah, I totally hear what you're saying about like, well, okay, I, you know, I don't have, like, maybe there's a way to not ink, but like, I have to ink because it looks better that way.

34:21.41

Delphina

And like, there is something to be said about clarity, you want to be able to make sure your art is clear.

34:26.98

Delphina

And easy to read. And if skipping a step is going to compromise that, like, that would be something I would be reluctant to do. But there are so many options to be able to work around that. There are so many ways

34:43.81

Delphina

to change your process and be able to say okay I can find a way to be clear without this step. This actually might be a little more exciting for me so I’m gonna just try some things, I’m gonna do some experiments, take some time, and try to make my page in a different way and see what happens. And you never know what you're gonna discover that way, and you might

35:09.03

Delphina

find your most favorite process in the world is something completely different from what you thought you needed to do. So I think that's like, that's so key to be able to like, figure out your process and then make it enjoyable. Because to your point, it's not about speed.

35:27.64

Delphina

It's about like, whether or not it feels like a slog, because you will drag your feet if it feels like a slog. But if it doesn't, you won't.

35:34.59

Krispy

Yeah.

35:37.55

Delphina

It's not about the amount of time. It's about how you're feeling.

35:41.08

Krispy

Yeah. And like you said before, it's a free thing. It is, you know, we're doing this with our free time. And I think that it's just, you just got to enjoy it. And I think understanding that process and then I guess advice for me specifically that worked is dividing it up into what works for the brain

36:04.73

Krispy

during those times, so it's just like, okay, I know that I’m going to go into writing mode and I’m going to bring up things that help me write I’m going to get my playlists out, I’m going to go and do this that and the other thing, and now I’m in the zone, and I’m not going into other steps until this zone is complete, and now that this is done I’m going on to the next step. So it's at this nice assembly line, that's how it works for us anyway.

36:29.21

Varethane

I think that's a pretty good strategy. And that's probably the main thing that I feel like all the major points have kind of been covered already. But like, I'll just kind of lend a note of support to some of these .

36:41.64

Krispy

Take her away.

36:50.34

Varethane

Because like, yeah, my, well, like that whole thing about breaking it down into a different process, like with Chirault, I would do a lot of like just one page at a time. All right, I’m going to draw this page and I'll finish it and then I'll draw the next page and then I'll finish it. And that becomes a bit of a staccato way of working. So I’m trying to, a lot of people will have different methods of creating that gel

37:07.75

Varethane

better or worse for them. And figuring out what kind of creator you are, because some people are great at doing that kind of one page at a time thing but I definitely find that I like to get into the zone of the part of the process that I’m in, and with Wychwood I formalized it a lot more. I was paying a lot more attention to like where each chapter would begin and end.

37:30.38

Varethane

And I would try to thumbnail out the whole thing before I moved on to kind of the next step of the inks. And then I would try to like, or sorry, the sketch. And then I'd try to sketch the whole thing before I moved on to the inks and so on.

37:42.42

Varethane

Depending on the length of the chapter, sometimes this process starts to break down a bit because the early chapters were all like, you know, 20, sorry, 30, 30-ish, thirty to forty pages long which is pretty reasonable But when I started hitting chapters that went like 60 pages, it's like if I thumbnail this whole thing, I’m just going to be doing only thumbnails for forever.

38:03.34

Varethane

And I do like a bit of variation in the process. And if too much time goes by in between those phases, it can actually start to kind of hurt like my personal attachment, not attachment, but like my immersion, I guess, in it. Because if I’m outlining, like that part is so much fun. It's like, all it's where all the brainstorming happens and all the like, yeah, I’m telling a story.

38:29.42

Varethane

And scripting is similar. But if I finish up a script, and then I start doing the thumbnails, and then I start doing the sketching, and I start doing the inks, and then I do all the like, you know, flat colors and the shading and the effects and the lettering.

38:42.85

Varethane

And I only go back to like scripting or outlining or those parts of the process after several months have gone by, I will have forgotten a lot of the stuff that was in there and like what that kind of overall story flow is.

38:56.39

Varethane

And it'll take a lot more time to kind of jump back in and re-immerse myself in all that. I have to reread like all the notes that I had in the past and like get myself caught up. So keeping the batches a little smaller, more recently, I've been finding, has been helping to keep me apprised of sort of where things are going, like what's happening right now, where I am in the story. Because if I, with a 60 page chapter, like it's going to take a good few months for that whole thing to be finished. And I don't want to totally forget everything else that I had planned and like all the emotions that I was feeling while I was writing.

39:35.11

Varethane

I like to try to keep those as kind of close to the surface as I can. So figuring out like if you like doing batches, the size of batch definitely makes a difference in how that process can look.

39:49.71

Delphina

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like there's a lot to be said for just being able to try things one way, try things another way, and then compare and contrast, like what parts of this did I like? What parts of this did I hate?

40:05.85

Delphina

And formulate your process from there.

40:11.07

Varethane

One thing that I guess I also want to say about that whole like advice for trying to keep a buffer going is be careful about putting it on break for really long periods of time often.

40:27.44

Varethane

Sometimes it can't be helped because like every delay or slowdown might have a totally different reason. It could be that something is happening in your life and you just can't make comics right now. And like that's okay. Sometimes you just have to wait that out and then kind of come back to things when you're actually free.

40:45.86

Varethane

If it's a matter of burnout or like energy levels fluctuating, then looking at potentially the reasons why that might be happening if maybe the pace is too fast and you need to slow it down.

41:00.10

Varethane

All of these things, there's... there's different strategies you can do. You can look at your process. But if you put the whole thing on like a hiatus a bunch of times in a row, it gets harder and harder every time to kind of get back on the horse afterwards.

41:17.06

Varethane

And trying to, like, even if the comic itself is not updating, like it's a break in that sense. If you don't keep some sort of habit of creation going in the background, it's going to get increasingly difficult to return to it because webcomics are really, they're, they're a marathon.

41:38.73

Varethane

And getting momentum is like, it's pretty important to keep the whole thing going for a long term kind of project.

41:49.03

Delphina

Yeah, that's true. I know a lot of people take breaks between chapters. I know I’m one of them. And I took a longer break than normal this year because I started a new job and things were very busy for me.

42:01.13

Delphina

And that momentum, trying to get that back after like... four or five months of not updating and not thinking about the comic, like that's a lot. So there's so much of this that's just boiling down to like, know your process, know where your energy is, know what you can do on a consistent basis at this time in your life. All right.

42:29.81

Delphina

And with that, I think we're pretty good. So yeah, just keep going with your buffer. Keep experimenting with different things and try to do the best thing that's best for your mental health, I guess, is what it boils down to.

42:43.56

Delphina

Anyway, I've been Delphina and you can find my webcomic Sombulus at sombulus.com.

42:52.19

Krispy

And I’m Krispy. You can find my works at ghostjunkstickness.com lunarblight.com.

42:59.77

Varethane

And I’m Varethane, and you can find my webcomics at chirault.sevensmith.net and Wychwoodcomic.com.

43:07.84

Krispy

Time to get buff!

43:10.08

Delphina

Baaaaa-fer!

43:11.10

Varethane

Err.

43:12.89

Krispy

Buff, buff, buff.

43:13.63

Varethane

More buff.

43:14.18

Krispy

I’m going to go work out.

In This Episode:

• What was on your mind when writing the beginning of your comic? Have you ever revised it or wanted to change it later?
• What are your favorite examples (from your work or others) of engaging beginning techniques? What kinds of approaches have you seen that are disengaging?
• What is your advice to someone who is trying to write (or rewrite) an engaging beginning but doesn't know how to go about matching it to their story?

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Episode Release Date: August 27, 2025

Episode Credits:

Rae Baade - they/them, https://empyreancomic.com

Claire Niebergall (Clam) - she/her, https://phantomarine.com

Bob Appavu - any, https://intothesmokecomic.com https://www.demonoftheunderground.com

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Transcription

00:15.00

Rae

Hello and welcome to Screen Tones, where we talk anything and everything webcomics. Today we are going to be talking about types of beginnings and when to use them. I'm Rae; they/them pronouns. I do the webcomics on Empyrean High and Overlord of Ravenfell.

00:33.33

Bob

I'm Bob, any pronouns, and I do the webcomics Into the Smoke and Demon of the Underground.

00:39.83

Claire

I'm Claire, also known as Clam. My pronouns are she/her. I make the webcomic Phantomarine.

00:47.70

Rae

The beginning hooks for your webcomics are what are going to inspire the reader to keep reading. And there's a lot of approaches to starting out, depending on the story that you're trying to tell. So to start off, Bob, what was on your mind when writing the beginning of your comic? Have you ever revised it or do you want to change it later? And so tell us your story.

01:11.03

Bob

Well, I just recently started my second webcomic, Into the Smoke, and it kind of starts with a flashback to a very, very brief flashback, to eight years ago where the main character who is a medium is speaking to his mentor and his mentor basically gives him like the three cardinal rules of being a spirit medium.

01:33.92

Bob

And then we cut eight years later and immediately he's breaking all three rules at once. So that is the opening. it's you know. It's a vertical scroll, so it's all one episode.

01:46.77

Bob

And the reason I wanted to start that way is because ah it's a supernatural mystery and with fantasy genre, it can sometimes be difficult to establish stakes right up front because you need a little bit of context and world building before you really understand what matters to the story.

02:05.30

Bob

And I'm a pretty character driven creator. So I like to... ah lead with something that says something about the character, as a little bit of humor to set the tone, and um also sneaks in a little bit of exposition so that um in a way that doesn't feel as much like exposition.

02:25.63

Bob

So that's kind of what my mindset was when I was going into it.

02:33.07

Rae

Yeah, I think that's a good approach to it because you don't really want exposition to be boring. And, you know, a lot of the fantasy does go like, okay, we need to go through their daily lives.

02:48.09

Rae

Oh, no, something happens and their world is upended. So sometimes getting right into it can make things a bit more interesting.

03:00.81

Rae

Okay, what about you, Clam?

03:03.64

Claire

I kind of had maybe the opposite situation where I jumped in originally too quickly. And in my mind, I thought basically like dropping people into a scene that was kind of mysterious and like, oh, what's going on here? Who are these characters? What's happening?

03:27.18

Claire

I thought that that was going to be something that was kind of a fun initial mystery to unravel. And I think some readers liked that at the start. But what I found and kind of what I found later as I was, I guess, analyzing how I read webcomics is depending on how, I guess, accessible your world is and how, I guess, easily understood your characters are,

03:54.95

Claire

You can't start too quickly sometimes. I found that... um Because my first pass that I did of Chapter 1 of Phantomarine was basically... um It was before I added any sort of a prologue. And the prologue came later because I did have people be like, what's happening? I don't understand.

04:14.07

Claire

Like, please tell me where we are. And I was like, valid. Okay, we can rewind like five minutes and I can explain kind of general things about like, what is the tone of the world? What rough time periods are we kind of looking at?

04:30.32

Claire

What's the vibe rather than just like, wham, here we are, situation, go! And yeah, initially, I now I notice whenever a webcomic starts too quickly, I'm usually, it's so funny, like, I usually kind of, I'm like, no, no, let's, let's slow down, because you got a lot of information to, I guess, initialize in the reader's mind, you have to kind of bring them into not just the world itself, but your art style and your writing style and all of these things where I guess, especially if you're working in like fantasy or sci fi, I think you need to give people a little bit more time to just breathe and be like, okay, what am I here for?

05:16.19

Claire

What's initially happening? oh Kind of what, What have I gotten myself into a little bit? And I think going too quickly and just kind of assuming like, yeah, people will figure it out. It can be okay. But even I find that for myself, like taking a little bit of extra time, a few more panels, pages, just to be like, here's the world. Here's some breathing room to get into it. Okay, now let's go.

05:43.46

Claire

Yeah, I started too quickly. But I think because my world needs a little bit more explanation, I think not everybody needs to be super slow. But for me, that was a benefit, slowing it down.

05:57.66

Claire

And yeah, establishing some things very clearly.

06:03.40

Rae

Yeah, I think in your case, because I did see it before you added the prologue, with your main character, it's kind of an ensemble.

06:14.02

Rae

So that really helped in fleshing out their dynamics before the inciting incident and such happened. So that that was definitely a good choice, in my opinion, because you get to see a bit more of how they are in their natural habitat so to speak before things happen um yeah so that's definitely one thing for me I'm the kind of person that thinks chronologically which makes me want to be begin my stories at the beginning like right before the inciting incident

06:36.03

Claire

Exactly.

06:55.01

Rae

I know, shocking. The beginning is, but the beginning is at the beginning.

06:58.86

Bob

Yeah.

07:01.31

Rae

Yeah. But we all know the beginning isn't always the best place to actually start the story. So I often go through my plot beats and I try to find where would be the good place to hook the audience.

07:17.40

Rae

And I like to envision the plot as like a kind of pie or maybe a brownie. And you just slice out where you're going to have the story. Because I do a lot of world building and all that. So it's like you have this history ah for both the characters and the world.

07:38.60

Rae

And you just got to figure out where to start. And sometimes that's in the middle. Sometimes... you start at the end or, you know, the last part.

07:51.57

Rae

So yeah, I pretty much have to revise all my scripts before I actually start because I often don't find the best beginning right off.

08:01.60

Claire

I think a lot of times it also depends on like, you discover what the hook is a little bit later in the process. Like you look at that slice that you've taken out and you're like, this is the story.

08:09.70

Rae

Yeah.

08:13.50

Claire

I know this is the story. But to find that one spot where you're like, oh, this is what's going to make people read. And that that can be at the end. It can be in the middle. like

08:23.79

Claire

It's, yeah, it's kind of deceptive. Like, it's not always the beginning. And I know for me, I felt I found the hook at the wrong spot.

08:22.94

Rae

It can be ah and that and that can yeah and that can that can definitely also be a lot of where the creator is interested in starting too because you know showing that mundane normal life isn't all isn't for everyone

08:48.79

Rae

too because it doesn't it's not interesting to draw for a lot of people and sometimes it's not interesting to write I find it a little bit easier to write it than I do draw it personally but that's that can also set me up for failure when I actually get to doing pages if I'm not doing ah prose rather than comics so you know um okay so

08:54.20

Claire

Mm-hmm.

09:16.61

Rae

Our next question is, what are your favorite examples, from your work or others, of engaging beginning techniques? And what kind of approaches have you seen that you find disengaging?

09:31.51

Rae

What about you, Bob?

09:34.41

Bob

You know It's actually pretty hard for me to narrow down what I think are the best or you know the most engaging approaches I've seen because there are actually so many different ways that you can do it and be engaging. I feel like it's so dependent on the genre you're writing and also what you kind of value and want to show as a creator. Like what what you guys are talking about just recently about hooks, I feel like a lot of people think that a hook has to be like a plot element that kind of, you know, sets off the story and sets things in motion. But a lot of times a hook can be, you know, the thing that makes you latch onto a character or like just a joke that is so funny that you're like, oh, well I really like this writer's vibe and I want to see more of it.

10:20.58

Claire

Mm-hmm.

10:31.28

Bob

I've also, I mean, a hook can even just be really gorgeous atmospheric panels that, you know, establish that you're really like amazing artist and someone just wants to see more. And that's a little tricky because, um you know, and,

10:48.16

Bob

A lead in with a lot of atmospheric panels where you're not necessarily seeing something happen. Ah It can be tricky because in a webcomic format, if you are releasing pages one at a time and nothing is quote unquote happening, then a lot of readers will lose interest. But at the same time,

11:08.52

Bob

If you're reading all those pages in one sitting, they go by in a flash and that's the experience that binge readers have. So a lot of times a good way to mitigate that that I've seen is people just, you know, doing like a 15 page dump at the beginning where they release, you know, if they have an opening that runs a little slower,