Where your characters fall on a morality scale can be one of the juiciest things to play with in writing for your webcomic. Today, we discuss how morality can play into your work, what makes a character redeemable or not, and more!

----

Episode Release Date: March 6, 2024

Episode Credits:

Christina Major (@delphina2k) - she/her, sombulus.com

Renie Jesanis (@renieplayerone) - she/they, kateblast.com

Phineas Klier (@tentacledeity) - they/them, heirsoftheveil.fervorcraft.de

----

The Intro "DO IT (feat. Shia LaBeouf)", and the Outro "It's Good To See You Again!!", both by Adrianwave, have been used and modified in good faith under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Licensed. Edits include: Fade IN/OUT, and a repeat added to the beginning of "It's Good To See You Again!!". For more information on this creative commons use, please reference https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.

Transcript

00:00.00

Renie

Hello and welcome to screen tones where we talk anything and everything webcomics today. We're going to be talking about character Morality. I'm Renie. I use she/they pronouns and I make the webComic Kate Blast

00:12.57

Delphina

And I'm Delphina. I use she/her pronouns and I make the webcomic Sombulus.

00:18.68

Phin

I'm Phin. I use they/them pronouns and I make the webcomic Heirs of the Veil.

00:24.78

Renie

So where your characters fall on a morality scale can be 1 of the juiciest things to play with and write for your webcomic. There is a lot of intrigue and showing what pushes people over certain ethical lines. And what might bring them back from a dark place and how you might tie themes like redemption or forgiveness or statements about society into all of that all kinds of delicious food to think about. Let's talk about it. How does morality play into your work and what kind of themes do you guys hold on to? So I guess to start things off I want to ask you guys how does morality play into your work and what kind of themes do you dig into when playing around with morality in your work.

01:25.80

Delphina

Um, so for Sombulus it's actually um, pretty core to to a lot of things and a lot of Siney's arc is related directly to morality um, but just in general I feel like I've been told that I have a lot of morally good character. Unk and morally interesting characters. Um, so I mean that's that's just I I sort of when people talk to me about like oh good characters are so boring because they're perfect in stuff I really want to bring some nuance into that because writing. Good characters are actually just a little more complex than writing somebody who's perfect which can definitely come across as flat and boring. Um, there's a really good breakdown I always come back to that was mentioned on the writing excuses podcast about. Um, 3 prongs for writing protagonists and you have sympathy. you have proactivity and you have competence so if you take Sombulus for a character like Rana I made her very sympathetic by making other characters like her. She's friendly and nice to everybody. Um, sometimes to an almost humorous extent because she's also nice to machines because she can talk to machines and so we see her like making a nice conversation with a coffee maker. It's like kind of like goofy. Um, but she's not a fighter. She's kind of content to take a back seat.

02:56.63

Delphina

For most things and she listens more than she talks. She has a very gentle and passive demeanor. Um, so even though she's sympathetic and she's competent. She's not very proactive. She's very restrained and I think that makes her you know she has a good. Side but she's not doing much with it and and I think that's an interesting dynamic. Um, especially contrasted with Sidney who's living with a very strict anti-magic anti-demon moral code. She considers herself very moral. Her morals are extremely important to her. And she's very proactive about imposing them on everybody and anyone she meets which like kind of dips her back into that's not very moral. Actually that's kind of the the tipped side of like you know that's the flip side of her character. She thinks she's very moral and that actually makes her.

03:43.44

Renie

I.

03:53.52

Delphina

A little more morally gray.

03:56.44

Renie

It's really interesting thinking about because like one of the things that you hear so much in writing and comics is, there are a lot of villains and antagonists that just, they operate like they think that they're you know they're doing the more elite right thing. And on the flip side. It's also interesting playing with that idea of does your character think that they themselves are actually a good person.

04:16.25

Delphina

Yes.

04:32.35

Renie

Um, because you can have a good character who thinks they're a terrible person and you can have a terrible person who thinks they're the good guy right.

04:39.54

Delphina

Yeah I think it also plays into how other characters perceive them like in the context of your story. I don't think Morality exists in a vacuum. Morality is very subjective. Morality is you know, depending on what kind of setting you have.

04:49.50

Renie

Oh yeah I.

04:56.80

Delphina

If you're in Gotham City with Batman he's like you know the the moral scale there is different than like power puff girls or whatever like there's there's you know, just definitely a balance in genre and a balance in you know what are all the other characters acting like this person is the most atrocious.

05:02.63

Renie

I.

05:15.31

Delphina

Person in the world and I really love coming back to Batman too because like he is like there's so many villains. There's so many treatments of those villains and sometimes the villains are very sympathetic sometimes the villains are very not but you can tell they all are coming from a place of. Passionately believing that what they're doing is right for the most part they are acting within their own mindset that they are doing the moral thing that nobody else has the courage or power to do and they are fighting against a corrupt. System but everybody has a different definition of what that corrupt system is and that's so interesting to me I love thinking about that.

05:56.90

Renie

I Yeah ah I Love that.

06:05.56

Phin

And yeah, I personally think that in cases like that the narrative and the framing of these characters within the narrative is like really key for how the reader will react to these characters and if they will see them as. Ah, moral or moral in these instances because I think Batman is a really great example for that because you can have characters that basically do the exact same thing. But um, if we. Take into account how the narrative treats these characters and we get a completely different view on them. For example, if you have a character that steals something and the character steals for like because they want to feed their family. And we already get a sympathetic angle and the reader will be more likely to empathize and think that this is like the morally right thing to do in a corrupt system. But if it's framed slightly different, if the reasons for stealing are like. Something that the audience might consider a bad reason than um, the character even though the action is kind of the same is suddenly not moral anymore which I always think is kind of interesting because it also um.

07:32.57

Phin

Makes you as the writer have to take into account how different readers might interpret what you are like putting onto the table. Um, yeah.

07:51.73

Phin

Okay, yeah, and how I personally like to go with that in my own stories I normally try to. Personally I Really like the approach. Ah that Delphina mentioned that you have a character who basically thinks they are in the right. They are doing the morally right thing. and post that against another choice or another view on a certain thing where you have like this power struggle where you have maybe 2 sites. Of the story and both have like some valid ideas about what they are doing and ah you kind of pit these moralities against each other and it might be kind of vague or be more like up to the reader's interpretation. Ah, who is actually like in the moral right? And who's not or whether or not there even is something morally right? answer to the thing.

08:57.58

Renie

I right? exactly and it's ah it's Funny. So I think about it like ah putting on like beer goggles almost. But yeah, instead of be It's yeah, what's your O C. What is your occ. How does your how does your character see the world. And you have to like really get into that headspace on you know when writing any character as far as Morality is concerned because sort of their lived experiences the way that they interact with the world the way the world treats them All. Mix together into what forms that character's moral compass and um, it's it starts becoming less about what's right and wrong and ah in a lot of situations. There's still some that are very obvious but like there are others that get into this really murky Area. And I think that the murky space is where a lot of the best stories come from and.

09:55.43

Phin

Yeah I personally also feel that it can be very restricting to just work with a character by the notion of what is correct and what is incorrect in that situation because it kind of limits you like I noticed that when I was. Writing a certain chapter and ears of the veil that I was kind of um, acting on the thing. Okay, this is like the right course of action to take. This is like the correct and the nice thing but it made the story kind of boring at that point and it also didn't feel organic for the character. So. I was like okay Victoria is going to do a break and enter because it fits to her in her situation. Um, is it a moral like morally correct choice. No, but it fits the character. It fits the situation so that was how it had to be done.

10:49.97

Renie

And I see this a lot in the tabletop universe. Um, where you're playing a character in a tabletop game and you get to a point where you're trying to make a decision and it's you know would I do this. Absolutely not would this character do this one hundred percent and you have to start really considering. Okay, but is this the decision that the character would make or is this me putting my own morals on this character and.

11:22.76

Phin

So yeah, exactly like especially in tabletop but also in webcomics. It's also sometimes nice to consider to just be like not only what the character would do but what would enhance the story and the drama in that moment. So It's kind of fun to play around with these. Like ideas and then maybe act on some of that to just enhance the story a little bit and.

11:51.44

Renie

I hear a lot of people also like to take their webcomic characters and take them into like Rp and you know but have like Rp partners for them and that's a great way to sort of get into a character's headspace and explore.

12:06.65

Phin

I Yeah I do that I do that too and it kind of helped me to figure out a lot about certain characters made them kind of more interesting but also made them less probably morally upright in many cases.

12:21.69

Renie

Yeah, oh yeah I.

12:22.42

Delphina

And well that's the interesting thing too when you're mixing and matching characters with like other people and stuff you're you're all bringing something different to the table versus like a webcomic where there's one writer. There's 1 person who's calling all the shots and they're the one who's deciding whether they're there. Trying to convey a moral stance whether they're trying to be like a cautionary tale or something like that. there's a lot of ways that you can convey your morals but when you're working within the context of webcomic. You're also using the setting. You're also the setting is almost another character. Because you're showing here's a character but here's what they're up against here's the context of them and I think that it is really important to distinguish well is this person a murderer or are they, you know a fighter who's like. Fighting for the right thing and and yeah, they happen to be killing but it doesn't make them a murderer I mean it's all super relative. Yeah.

13:26.20

Renie

I yeah and it's ah one of the fun things that I've had fun exploring is the fact that in my Kate Blast there are two worlds and cultures that I have to sort of compare morals because then there's there's earth with. All its messiness and you know ah hodgepodge of different values and cultures and whatever um, put up against the ah the cat the cat people from space and what is their planet's morals. How is it similar? How is it different? To really start I really start having some fun once I start getting you know okay cat person is now interacting in human society where do the morals clash. Um, where do they match up and and you can get to a point where we can relate to each other on this thing. Or oh that's odd you can play with the cult like a little bit of culture shock there with a morality space too and.

14:28.92

Delphina

And yeah, ah, sci-fi and fantasy is so great for that like you just have so many options for introducing non-Earth morals or not and that helps you like kind of challenge. What you've been taught too I think ah you see it in Star Trek a lot just they come up with an Alien race and and they have a completely different way of viewing things. They have a completely different system of right and wrong and so you're trying to in the process of saying well this Alien Race is right or wrong. You're also making a comment about humanity like we should be challenging these things. Is this moral and that can be a really interesting space and.

15:13.27

Phin

And yeah, I Also think that if you have different factions where you have to like kind of not compare their morality but the more ah their moral compasses are kind of clashing with each other it kind of can help to like create conflicts. And um, the story kind of writes itself a little bit because there is something that you can work on without actually having to think about it too deeply but I also kind of like the kind of ah the the aspect of just um. Because you have this contrast between like ah differing factions that you basically by contrasting them can um, enhance their views and their moral standards. Basically just because they're interacting with each other. So I Really like that.

16:06.88

Renie

I gonna hit pause. So I guess that brings us sort of into sort of our next question and 1 of my favorite spaces to play around in is the classic redemption. Arc. Um, how do you work with redemption and incorporate that into your work and what makes a character redeemable or irredeemable after they've done things that might not be entirely moral.

16:39.10

Delphina

Oh such a good question. I think that again I'm going to come back to Sydney. She's a main character who starts with a very strict moral code that's at odds with pretty much what everybody that she meets and so it. doesn't make her very sympathetic it doesn't make her very likable but 1 of the things that I wanted to do to keep her interesting as a protagonist and make you want a root for her is that I ramped up her emotions to such a degree that she's. Not super rational about it and she can often be provoked into doing things that are technically against the rules against her moral code. by the other characters around her. Um, and so part of the fun of the story and yeah, her semi-redemption arc is. Um, is seeing how the other characters that Sydney meets and comes to care about shift those reasons and break them down and I think that's at the core of a lot of redemption arcs like you're. You show a moral character. They're doing bad things. Maybe they're killing or they're stealing or they're doing something that the other characters don't necessarily approve of and is not approved in their society. But once you start breaking down the reasons for why they're doing them you start seeing.

18:02.87

Delphina

Finding the touchpoints that are relatable. Sidney was told to fight these demon type characters because they were evil and maybe that's not true, but the reason ultimately why she wanted to do that is because she wanted to protect something she wanted to protect innocent people. Um, who were being abused by systems that were taking advantage of her and that is the touch point that's relatable. Um, you ah a steer is you hate this demon character. Um, she's been magically super glued to this. Demon character and she hates him and she thinks it's about using magic irresponsibly about like being this, you know, following these rules that are heinous to her. Um, but ultimately what she hates and what comes out is that. He doesn't he's dismissive of her agency and she treats the things that are important to her as a joke and that's relatable. We. Ah, we've all felt like discarded or discredited before and you know we all want that. Level of respect and that's how we come around from a not so great character like morally to a more sympathetic character because protecting things and from being abused and being respected are actually pretty relatable things to want so when you.

19:36.83

Delphina

When you're able to erode those reasons and let characters come to an understanding with their setting with the other characters. Um, that's when you start getting into the you know the process of redemption. That's when they can start making friends and they can start reaching out. And understand that they were in a very limited space and they want to be better.

20:07.26

Phin

And yeah I think like um, creating that relatability is kind of like 1 of the first steps to enter like a successful redemption arc because there has to be some understanding like doff. You know, you have to kind of be able to grasp where the character is coming from. and I think sometimes it's kind of hard to find a balance, especially when you have a character that's not super like that is. Doing very immoral things and you try to like um, bring them onto the path of a redemption arc it can sometimes be like ah hard to balance um, making this character relatable and understanding why they became the way that they are in the story. And making up excuses for them. Um, because what I kind of see a lot or also especially with maybe um, more inexperienced writers is that you have like this character who's kind of edgy who's also a pretty bad person. Who murders and is an asshole and whatever and you still like you're still supposed to like them because um, they had like a very tragic backstory where I don't know their teddy bear got thrown into the trash by the parents and.

21:29.72

Delphina

Not the sunny bear.

21:33.36

Phin

But the Terry bearing that traumatized them so much and now they're really like a bad person and you yeah, the most tragic one? Um, yeah, but.

21:38.11

Renie

What what? a true great origin story.

21:48.95

Phin

Basically you have to kind of balance it and you also have to do it a little bit more gradually because it can be really jarring when a character. Oh okay, um, it can be really jarring when a character that was basically um. A villainous character before someone who was fighting against the main characters antagonistic suddenly turns around and is nice to everyone. Um, like there has to be a little bit of time. The character's getting used to that and also the character probably should. Kind of Face. Ah the immoral actions that they've committed like not necessarily be punished for it because I kind of think that's I don't really like calls for punishment for character if they've done something bad because I mostly think that's not like. In many cases. It's not very interesting to go that route but actually like having the character face What they have done and deal with that and ah try to be better and then you have to actively like to see that in the Story. So I think that's like a redemption arc.

23:04.30

Phin

Is mostly successful even though I think they can be kind of hard to pull off.

23:10.58

Renie

Like and sometimes like pure punishment so to speak can be kind of Unrealistic Um, and I think that what's often more realistic and interesting in stories is consequences. Ah, because there's lots of things that can go like punishment is very much a culture centric thing. Um, you know you go in, you get Justice. You get it. You go through certain systems and it works and whatever, whereas consequences for your actions can be punishments but it could also be because I chose to do X Planet Y is now toast. Um, and then having characters live with the consequences of their immoral decisions. Is often just way more fun to play with and gives the other characters stuff to bounce. Ah off of or even moments for other characters with conflicting morals to have moments of oh I get it. Oh that kind of sucks or more of a. Reap but you so yeah.

24:22.94

Delphina

And yeah, absolutely I feel like when you see somebody and they did something for reason X But like reason y happens instead then they're like oh oh that was not something that was on my radar at all. Then you started getting that sympathy like oh I get it now like this I was thinking all along that I was doing something for this cause but the effects that that's having on the side. Are are a little too much for me. They kind of blindsided me. I think that's so interesting and.

25:00.71

Renie

Such devastation was not my intent and.

25:04.96

Phin

Yeah, basically I Also think that if you deal with consequences and the character is supposed to go on a redemption arc having them face consequences that actually like gets them right in the heart something that was important to them and it goes horribly wrong because of their actions. I Think that is like such a strong trigger to basically go on this redemption arc and try to change because it's something so vital for the character that just like something devastating that went wrong. So You can then Like. Destroy and rebuild so to speak.

25:45.66

Renie

I yeah I I love doing that and that's one of the areas that I like playing with in Kate Blast too is you have a bunch of different antagonists and villains with very different ideas of where they want the end game to go. Um, so then that gives a ton of room to play with for ah characters that were part of that group moving forward and then went oh wait. The group's gone a different way and I don't like this anymore. Um, it's it's. Those moments of clarity are very emotional and impacting moments in storytelling. So definitely don't shy away from that.

26:32.93

Phin

Yeah, I also feel in that regard. It can be super interesting because I kind of like stories where you have an antagonistic force that is basically doing the right thing but maybe through the wrong means so when you. Then combine that with like the thing that they were trying or the means that they were using ah blowing up in their face. You can really work with that and also I really like to kind of try to interlink how they can be on the 1 hand. Doing the right thing but still failing miserably on the moral scale and how do you redeem that and how do you kind of play with the readers by having like the setup where basically what they're doing is right but the means are just completely wrong.

27:36.70

Renie

Yeah exactly and like that's something that's explored a lot like to circle back on the earlier Batman or if it's because Batman like is a great comic about morality in almost every single arc um, just because ah of who. Bruce Wayne is he's a billionaire he has he he does billionaire things that aren't great and it's arguable that his ah some of the things that he has done for Wayne Corporation

28:11.37

Renie

Definitely had a negative impact on Gotham itself. Um, and ah, especially a lot of you know more? the the oneshot stories explore that a lot too. But there's a ton of other webcomics and things like that that dive into that and. Never be afraid to like put like your hero ah through so through a more scrutiny lens and you know hold that mirror up and be like are you sure this is what you want to make like.

28:44.34

Delphina

Yeah I Really love a like the ends justify the means sort of approach like you see a lot of characters who get into this kind of mindset where oh I I need to I need to do this thing. It's really important for me to do this thing I.

28:50.59

Renie

Yeah.

29:03.65

Delphina

I can't care about all the little things that are happening in it. It's usually that contrast between my big grandiose goal and something small like a you know a kid who is who is now lost because you know. They lost their parents now because of something that you did and just balancing those larger moments with the small moments like how many small moments are going to add up to a large moment for you. What makes the balance shift for you when all of a sudden you like the things that you're doing. Are just a little too far gone from your original goals. I just watched RRR on Netflix which is a fantastic movie. I love it so much. Um, but you have the 2 main protagonists. There's like just this one guy who is very ‘the ends justify the means’. He has, you know, this very strict adherence and he's doing very despicable things even things that the villains of the story are just like wow man that. That's a little intense. Oh my god you're you're a little scary to me. But you can tell there's a drive behind it. You could tell he wants something really really bad and he's willing to do a whole lot of bad stuff before.

30:34.37

Delphina

1 person comes into his life and says you know what there's people here. There's things that you've forgotten about. You've lost your way and I'm here to remind you about those and you're going to punish me and you're going to like you're you're going to try to justify your worldview by silencing me. But you can't silence me and in some ways I have actually touched your heart and made you better for it like that's how you get this like really powerful redemption arc yeah.

31:04.90

Renie

So yeah, oh I love that. So.

31:12.50

Phin

Yeah I think that's like that's that's exactly it like you have this as as you said, like this tipping scale like how much is too much and when does the character realize and I like I really like that. But I sometimes also am okay with a character not being redeemable or staying completely unredeemable like um, one of my favorite villains ever is ah Claudia Wolf or from Silent Hill Three. And she does some horrendous things for a cause that is just in her head basically to create a paradise where everyone is happy and what I like so much about a character like Claudia is that she knows 100% that she is doing terrible things. She knows that she is not going to enter that paradise that she wants to create because she is a bad person but she's basically willing to sacrifice that and become someone who is so terrible. So everyone else can be happy and I mean she's also kind of religiously fanatic and the story is not quite as she thinks the story is but I also think that characters like these can be really interesting because it can be so tragic to see that.

32:44.89

Phin

They had like a course that was just to them and you can understand their cause but they are basically so set into their tracks that they just steamroll into tragedy.

32:59.25

Delphina

And yeah, if you're going for a tragic story that can be like just a very effective way to just show an opportunity and opportunity again where people have the ability to either walk away from what they're doing or double down. And they keep doubling down and they keep doing worse things and they keep going down this path because they see no other alternative and it is really kind of it. It accentuates to me the theme of like it. You need to be Flexible. You need to understand that Morality does not exist in a vacuum and there are nuances that you need to consider and if you don't This is what happens This is what happens to you You are going down this path that you can never return from And. That's really sad.

33:53.37

Renie

I Yeah yeah, it's so fun to play with the points of no return because like those are very dramatic moments that have a lot of punch when they have the thought but into them and the correct setup. One of the problems that I see with that in a lot of media is when they try and hit that point of no return a little too early. and I know that a lot of the intention behind that is because they don't want to. I Know a lot of writers have said that you know that oh well I don't want to have to worry about you know readers thinking that this character's morals are Mine. So I'm going to have them go off the deep end early so that we can really pick on them and I feel like if you're writing that Way. You're going to. Tell yourself short on the full potential that the story can have and.

34:49.44

Phin

Yeah, to be honest, it can be so hard sometimes to like just sit with these things especially when you publish a webcomic and you get to read their feedback and you get these kinds of feedback that are like, readers might be concerned about the course a character is taking or that you might endorse. Ah what the character is doing there like I had a scene and heirs of the veil where ah corus basically misuses his power and authority. And um, I got a few comments where people kind of had problems with it because they were, in my opinion, a justifiable ah thinking of stuff like misusing your power in like a police context and police brutality and for me it was like. Was never meant to be a scene ah where he was supposed to be in the right, but the scene is also not like concluded in a way where they talk about him being in the wrong or whatever. So I then had to sit with it for months until I could like actually concluded and give like the conclusion like the to give the conclusion and show like the characters in a struggle and turmoil with what he has done and sometimes like especially publishing in that format.

36:18.10

Phin

It can make it really hard to not immediately like panic and go like oh fuck people now hate that character because he did something immoral I have to rectify this some somehow or um, all people now think I align myself with the horrible action of that character.

36:23.50

Renie

Mmm.

36:35.86

Phin

Have to make them extra bad now. So people don't think like I'm trying to be nuanced. No people don't think I'm actually condoning these horrible actions.

36:47.23

Renie

It's the classic. Ah ah the ah just just hold on and then it's coming out next chapter except in webcomic time next chapter is in like eight months and by then it's like uh-o.

36:59.53

Delphina

It. It's so true. It's terrible and like do you ever get the impulse to go into your comments section and argue with people like wait wait wait wait. You're you're not but bla bla I think that probably makes it worse but I always have that impulse.

37:16.21

Renie

I hundred percent every single time arguing with your commenters in the comments always makes things worse. Never do it top. Tip: Don't do it.

37:21.36

Phin

I mean I did that with the person especially who made the police brutality comment. I actually talked with that person and we had a really nice conversation about that. So I think there was.

37:22.77

Delphina

Don't do it.

37:34.75

Renie

That's really good. The 1 time free pass.

37:37.64

Phin

Yeah I think that was the 1 time where I would say okay, what's good that I talked with them the one time. Yeah.

37:43.76

Delphina

Yeah, yeah I Do think if people are getting like escalating arguments in your comment section. You might want to cool it down, you might want to say Um, ok, um, you know these are all really good points. Um, there's definitely more to this character coming up. So just just hold on.

38:01.65

Delphina

I Guess that would be my advice for that if if people are getting really because people can get very um, argumentative in your comment sections when you're you're presenting kind of a morally gray character and somebody's like well they're they're doing the complete logical thing and somebody's like well no, but they're assholes. It's like. So. There's a balance here, Please please wait it out and.

38:26.16

Renie

Yeah, and I think this does bring us sort of into our last question where it's what is your advice to people who are looking for ways to shift to their characters around ah morally and how to keep that impact and.

38:40.61

Delphina

And oh gosh well Finn brought up a great point of what not to do and that's to give your character a tragic backstory that's their excuse for all of the horrible things that they've done like don't do that because like even if something bad happened to you. In the past, you're never going to be able to shift people away unless they're doing something in the present that acknowledges and makes up for in some way and this is a very broad way. There's a lot of different ways you can make up for it. The immoral actions that a character has done in the past but like that's that's one of the things that like ah like just giving them a tragic backstory isn't enough. I think a lot of comic artists lean on that early. And hard and it's just not. It doesn't work out the same way to a reader and that can keep them very unsympathetic. Um, another tip I've seen is if the character is not your focal character if they're not the viewpoint character make them a viewpoint character for a little bit and show their thought process. Show what they're going through show the other things that maybe the other characters don't see because bringing somebody into a third person omniscient or or first person view.

40:14.94

Delphina

Can actually increase reader sympathy a lot even if they're still doing terrible things. Even if they're doing the exact same things knowing why knowing the why can really help with making an unsympathetic character more sympathetic. Um, and if you're. Going the opposite way. Just do the opposite thing just Zoom out of their head Zoom into the consequences that they're having in the world around them and how other people are viewing them and why they're so blind in their own little path. That they're not seeing the outside world around them and how it's changing based on their actions. Um, that can reduce the sympathy and kind of make them slide a little further down the immoral scale. Even if they're doing the exact same things and.

41:09.13

Phin

Yeah I would also absolutely say like take your time just allow yourself the time to have the character change gradually like no matter in which direction you want to change them take your time show it like piece by piece. Give a little bit of the reasoning why they are changing now because a lot of the times I think changes in character moralities like fall-flat for me because it is too sudden like. There is like 1 scene of one very impactful thing and the character is suddenly like a changed person and a lot of the times that doesn't work for me and even if it's like something really big and impactful. The character should still like to be allowed the time to unpack. What they have done to struggle to maybe sometimes fall back into old habits and then um, get back out of it because it makes for like a little bit more interesting storytelling but also it makes it more believable for the reader to really see. How the character is changing and.

42:27.92

Renie

And oh a hundred percent I had a thought and then my brain just went fly away.

42:35.98

Delphina

Ah, yeah I think it's important to remember too that Morality is relative. It's contextual to the setting. It's contextual to the other characters. It's contextual to the theme and I think what a lot of people struggle with is they. Try to make it all fit within the character. What the character does or doesn't do or how the character acts and Morality is necessarily a thing that affects other people and other things in the settings. So If you're zoomed too far In. And really only looking to change the way that a character is moral by changing what that character does or doesn't do. I Don't think that's usually enough. I think you do need reactions from other people and consequences and all those good things. Those external things that will. Show the reader. This was a good idea or this was a bad idea.

43:35.99

Phin

And yeah I Also think another thing is don't be scared to not have your characters actions always align with your own Morality I Sometimes see that. People have this style of writing where they really want the character to feel good and be a good person. and a lot of the times that can make for a weaker story. So don't be afraid to have the character do things that you would normally not do. Or that you would consider immoral if it fits your story and if it makes the plot work better make it more interesting because this is particularly something that I have struggled with. Ah, that people will read my stories and think oh you have this thing in that story or you have that thing and that story that means you condone it that means you're a bad person. So I kind of constricted myself a lot by just being like Okay, how do I make the character. Look like a nice person and I notice just makes for pretty boring writing and you kind of have to sometimes deal with the fact that maybe readers might get upset with the characters but remember they're not upset at you. You are basically doing your job and you.

45:02.93

Phin

Doing it good and.

45:03.61

Renie

it's a hundred percent yeah it's such an issue all across writing where you get these characters that are just nothing where it's this perfect character. Nothing bad happens to them. They don't do anything bad. Everything's perfect and. Those characters are just boring because a lot of the best writing and best ah moments and stories comes from those moments of conflict the moments of self reflection where you go is this really the right thing to do or. Oh no, this thing that I did had these consequences. How do I live with this or how do I move forward and that's just good writing where it gives you more flexibility with your characters and makes the scenes just more interesting to read. It's just when you're making characters just remember. Pu but he's nerfect.

46:02.81

Delphina

You Poe buddies nerfect I I think too like if you can if they if you really want some somebody who who really focuses on on on their morals and they're like a really good person and they they always do the thing. Like pile on the external conflict pile on the things where like there wasn't anything they did wrong but like the world was just wrong or like it they yeah it like I think that's.

46:28.17

Renie

I write Oh I Love those stories. I'm a sucker for that.

46:36.86

Delphina

An important aspect of morality in real life too is that you can do everything right and people still won't like you people still won't like it. It won't go over perfectly because there is no perfect action and the more that you can illustrate and that in your writing the realer those characters will feel. As opposed to kind of this cardboard cutout like oh here's a hero here's Superman he punched the villain and nothing bad ever happened ever again like no, that's not the way the world works. We all know that and we need to? oh.

47:06.27

Renie

I know we all know that Superman had had a fascist arc. Yeah, yeah, there was an arc.

47:13.38

Delphina

I didn't know that until just now. Thank you for that. Superman is canceled. Ah yeah, but ah, but yeah, like we all know that the world's you know, kind of sucks sometimes and that that's part of life and I think. That makes your characters that much more lifelike and.

47:34.71

Renie

And that reminds me of my favorite star trek next generation quote and it's arguably one of my favorite episodes of star trek ever and it summed up where ah Picard is talking about. You know they're trying, the crew of the enterprise is just trying and they're doing all the things and.

47:53.11

Renie

It's still not working. Nothing's going right? And Picard says you can do everything right and still lose that's life and I think that's such an important thing to carry with you both in real life and when you're writing.

48:09.76

Delphina

Absolutely.

48:14.55

Renie

Pause. Oh and I think that brings us to the end of this episode. I think that's a bacon cheddar wrap I've been Renie. You can read my work at kateblast.com

48:26.62

Delphina

And I've been Delphina you can read my comic Sombulus at sombulous.com.

48:31.90

Phin

I've been Phin and you can read my comic at heirsoftheveil.com and now let's go and commit some crimes or something more.

48:39.90

Renie

Yeah, be gay, do crimes.

48:40.79

Delphina

Murder Er. Ah.